HanoiVillan Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, darrenm said: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/03/do-we-become-more-conservative-with-age-young-old-politics I'm actually somewhat impressed that that writer managed to write about a thousand words on why old people are more conservative and absolutely none of them are 'property' or 'house'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 27, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2017 Suffice to day I don't agree. To much extent at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, Chindie said: Suffice to day I don't agree. To much extent at all. No probs I'm enjoying how fascinating it has been, and continues to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: No that was Bliar and Brown, Mays continuing it Quote David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election. The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282 Blair did, on a few occasions, suggest there could be a referendum, but it never happened. The fact is, Cameron 'bribed' people with it, used scare tactics to fight it and then ran away after the result. May is simply continuing the mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 46 minutes ago, darrenm said: Hardly anywhere swung right. Even my Toryville backyard with Javid against a token young Labour candidate swung left. Not so sure about that - they increased their vote share from last time and got the most seats. Scotland seemed to go more tory in terms of seats and votes. The Brexit thing seems to have played a fair part in some of the maths, too. It seems like there's been more polarisation, perhaps, with added Brexit ingredients - some places swung left, some to the tories and the middle/smaller parties did worse as a result. I think your right that a kind of bubble has burst and more people see the tories as pretty much useless. But like @Chindie I think we're more likely to see coalitions/minority gov'ts for a while. And hopefully a change to the system, too, as a result. When there are clear winners, they are never going to change to a fairer system, but when there are no clear winners, then alternative, more proportional and fairer systems could get a chance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, darrenm said: I'm enjoying how fascinating it has been, and continues to be. Yeah, this. Like I said the other day, nothing at all is predictable any more, everyone is frequently wrong about all sorts of stuff that was previously highly predictable. And there's the hope of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 1 minute ago, blandy said: But like @Chindie I think we're more likely to see coalitions/minority gov'ts for a while And that's something else I agree with. @Chindie seems to have a bit of a persecution complex While I think if there was an election now there would be a Labour landslide, I don't think the Tories are that stupid so they'll do anything they can to avoid calling another while they steady the ship and find a decent leader (who that is is their problem for another day) and then we'll settle into coalitions for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, darrenm said: I don't think the Tories are that stupid You lost me there 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 27, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2017 I think the smartest thing the Tories could do right now would be to concede defeat and let Labour struggle with Brexit, while they regroup. But they aren't that smart. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 In fact, to be serious, they really are that stupid. They're haplessly awfully stupid. Not unintelligent stupid, but foolish stupid. It seems to affect a lot of them. Because they try and act in their own interest al the time, they end up messing everything up. They are too foolish to see the wider picture. Austerity was stupid, the referendum was stupid, immigration "plans" were stupid, the snap election was stupid, everything they've said about Brexit has been stupid. Scrapping Nimrods was stupid, Police, Fire, NHS cuts were stupid, schools funding - stupid, prison's policy - stupid, manifesto promises - stupid. They are humungously, demonstrably utterly stupid. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, mjmooney said: I think the smartest thing the Tories could do right now would be to concede defeat and let Labour struggle with Brexit, while they regroup. It's going to do for them for a long time, I think. And quite a few of them know it. But they're unwilling to act to change things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, darrenm said: I don't think the Tories are that stupid I've heard that line many a time over the years and I'd normally have to agree with the person telling me that they had a point. This time however all the evidence points to the contrary. They simply don't seem capable of learning from their mistakes nor do hey seem able to think the simplest of things through to its logical conclusion. Rarelly a day goes by at the minute without yet another interview with a Tory Minister being described as a car crash. Im actually of the opinion, for once, they are that stupid 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 30 minutes ago, DK82 said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282 Blair did, on a few occasions, suggest there could be a referendum, but it never happened. The fact is, Cameron 'bribed' people with it, used scare tactics to fight it and then ran away after the result. May is simply continuing the mess. I thought you was referring to the country as a whole not just exiting the eu. I would say 51.9% of the public that voted it are to blame. Cameron warned us to stay unlike those fools boris and Gove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 3 hours ago, DK82 said: Blair did, on a few occasions, suggest there could be a referendum, but it never happened it was in their manifesto Quote We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote." that's a bit more than suggesting ... as we all know once it's in a manifesto it's cast in stone and can't be removed , cause nobody ever prior to 2017 has changed their mind or broken an election promise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 4 hours ago, bobzy said: How shit does a Prime Minister need to be for the public not to vote for them? slightly more shit than a shit alternative I guess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 hours ago, mjmooney said: I think the smartest thing the Tories could do right now would be to concede defeat and let Labour struggle with Brexit, while they regroup. it's an interesting point as while twitter was in overdrive about May changing her mind on her policies , Labour keep changing their mind on Brexit without anyone noticing (funny that) do any of the Labour people on here actually know the party position , this week , at least ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 27, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2017 42 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: slightly more shit than a shit alternative I guess 35 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Labour keep changing their mind on Brexit without anyone noticing (funny that) - do any of the Labour people on here actually know the party position , this week , at least ? This is the thing. Because T.May's broken, that's now the "narrative" and Labour just keeping their heads down gain by default. They're in an awkward position on Brexit, too (though not as bad as the tories), and they don't have a clear policy, but they can get away with it, because they're not in charge. Most MP's of all sides think Brexit will be harmful and is not the right thing to do, but they're terrified, mostly, that Brexity voters will punish them if they say so, in many seats. The referendum was set up as advisory, for whatever reason, but was treated as an cast iron certainty on a 48-52 split. An advisory result which basically said "dunno, really, not quite sure, probably, just about, Leave" has been treated as gospel that cannot be disobeyed, despite the campaign being short of detail and long on lies on all sides. I'm less fussed about leaving, than about leave being handled by utter effwits, who are starting to realise that they messed up, and will have to deal with the mess. I expect a lot of them to run away and hide, like Hammy did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 50 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: it's an interesting point as while twitter was in overdrive about May changing her mind on her policies , Labour keep changing their mind on Brexit without anyone noticing (funny that) do any of the Labour people on here actually know the party position , this week , at least ? Nope. And neither do the shadow cabinet. Thornberry said we'd stay in the single market but McDonnell said we'd leave entirely. They're a bit mixed up. Though I'm not sure it's entirely by accident as it's currently a requirement to have a duplicitous relationship with the electorate over brexit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 sorta OT but loosely Election related , don't know if anyone has seen this ? I used to play Democracy 2 , seems like they've upgraded it and I need to get a new version now I know it's not based on anything real world , but I thought it was still an interesting read , wonder what people take on it is ? Quote For now, though, comrade Corbyn has sailed the ship of state through the straits of Brexit, and has emerged on the other side, with a very different Britain - egalitarian, socialist and happily poor. I think he'd be alright with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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