Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[PussEKatt]

11 minutes ago, Genie said:

China haven’t even SAID anything in support have they? 

They are just keeping quiet.

No wonder.Would you want to take Russias side in a military conflict after watching how pathetic they are.If they were as good as the world thought "before the war started" they would have won after only a couple of weeks.Even now ( IMHO ) the only reason the war is still going is because if you told Putin how the conflit is really going,you will spend the next 30 years in prison. 

[Genie]

Just now, PussEKatt said:

No wonder.Would you want to take Russias side in a military conflict after watching how pathetic they are.If they were as good as the world thought "before the war started" they would have won after only a couple of weeks.Even now ( IMHO ) the only reason the war is still going is because if you told Putin how the conflit is really going,you will spend the next 30 years in prison. 

I think the sanctions against Russia are the main reason China doesn’t want to get involved. The West couldn’t sanction China in the same way but still, China doesn’t want to get any new sanctions for someone else’s war.

[A'Villan]

China's not been completely hush. @Genie

China did send warning to the West to stay out of the Russian conflict with Ukraine, at least thats what was reported here in Australia. 

Also I read somewhere that some department of significance in the Ukraine was bombarded with an influx of hacking from China right before the invasion from Russia.

Another report said that China asked Russia to delay invasion until after the Olympics.

Edit: department of significance was Ukrainian military and nuclear facilities on the eve before the invasion. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by A'Villan

[GarethRDR]

30 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Apologies, that one's on me.  Had a curry called the "Gurkha's Revenge" the other day and let me tell you, they delivered on their vengeance.

Edited May 18, 2022 by GarethRDR

[LondonLax]

I think China were quite possibly interested in encouraging Russia in their venture, to test the waters and see the likely response, with a view to trying something similar in Taiwan. 

Whether they intend it or not it was win win for China. Either Russia shows that it would be no problem to invade and subdue a neighbour or Russia becomes impoverished and more dependent on China. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by LondonLax

[sidcow]

China, North Korea and Vietnam might have millions more troops but as we are seeing with Russia the standard of weapons and competency of troops is king.

I seriously doubt their weapons are anything close to what The West have.  As with anything else China probably have cheap tin pot knock offs of what The West have.  I know they are getting better at cars and stuff but military hardware is a different kettle of fish, so highly specialised.  One of the Chinese Aircraft Carriers is built from the hull of a Russian ship laid down but then cancelled from 1985, their second is based on that ship.

And logistically having 5 million troops at home doesn't mean you can field them and project power abroad.  The west would destroy their logistical capacity in short order.

All very hypothetical of course but I think The West would keep those troops bottled up at home unless they intend to march from the Far East across the world.

[sidcow]

Lets be honest.  If this was NATO forces fighting conventionally in Ukraine with their top grade weapons, Russia would have probably been beaten in a couple of weeks.  Ukraine are doing a good job of destroying their capability with Soviet-era equipment and NATO cast offs they've barely been trained with.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

Russia would have probably been beaten in a couple of weeks

If with air support and cruise missiles,  I suspect days.  

[A'Villan]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

China, North Korea and Vietnam might have millions more troops but as we are seeing with Russia the standard of weapons and competency of troops is king.

I seriously doubt their weapons are anything close to what The West have.  As with anything else China probably have cheap tin pot knock offs of what The West have.  I know they are getting better at cars and stuff but military hardware is a different kettle of fish, so highly specialised.  One of the Chinese Aircraft Carriers is built from the hull of a Russian ship laid down but then cancelled from 1985, their second is based on that ship.

And logistically having 5 million troops at home doesn't mean you can field them and project power abroad.  The west would destroy their logistical capacity in short order.

All very hypothetical of course but I think The West would keep those troops bottled up at home unless they intend to march from the Far East across the world.

The West's psy-ops alone would cripple them. Add the hi-tech weapons and artillery. Check mate.

Another principle of warfare that's age old is never underestimate the under dog.

China's hacking is a threat for example. 

If the Taliban can successfully blow up the two most significant structures for world trade on USA soil, as well as having a good go at doing the same to the headquarters for the most advanced and fortified military that the world has to offer, then Russia and China teamed up could cause some problems of their own.

[sidcow]

7 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

If with air support and cruise missiles,  I suspect days.  

I originally wrote days then changed it.

Maybe, but even Middle Eastern wars tended to last more than days, though The West have learned a lot of lessons from those wars so equipment has still come a long way.

[limpid]

3 hours ago, A'Villan said:

French intelligence intercepted communications between leading Nazi officials and corporate businessmen, stating that although the Nazis had lost the war through military means, they were going to come back and 'win the war' through economic means. So with the acknowledgement the military side of their plight was lost, they begun to funnel their wealth and money out of Germany so that they would not lose it to reparations of war. They also setup factories and warehouses in secret in other countries for the development and advancement of technology. All of this was with the view to come back as an economic power. 

Source please.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

This conflict has changed the world power balance and I think China has become weaker because of Russian incompetence. 

In 2021 most people could see that Nato v Russia would result in a Nato victory. But Russia & China v Nato was a different story. 

But the new strengthened Nato could easily defeat battle scarred Russia using only European based countries.  

The leaves North American Nato plus Japan, Australia and maybe South Korea to oppose China.  With the vast majority of Chinese weapons being untested in battle.  I don’t see China being confident of winning that battle.  

If I was the leader of China I wouldn't interfere on behalf of Russia. In fact I'd be looking for Russia to end the conflict early in order to preserve Russia's military threat to Europe. 

Even if Russia grinds out a victory in Ukraine, they will not be a credible threat to Nato for 10 years.  

 

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

China, North Korea and Vietnam might have millions more troops but as we are seeing with Russia the standard of weapons and competency of troops is king.

I seriously doubt their weapons are anything close to what The West have.  As with anything else China probably have cheap tin pot knock offs of what The West have.  I know they are getting better at cars and stuff but military hardware is a different kettle of fish, so highly specialised.  One of the Chinese Aircraft Carriers is built from the hull of a Russian ship laid down but then cancelled from 1985, their second is based on that ship.

And logistically having 5 million troops at home doesn't mean you can field them and project power abroad.  The west would destroy their logistical capacity in short order.

All very hypothetical of course but I think The West would keep those troops bottled up at home unless they intend to march from the Far East across the world.

I think this is very correct to a point. Although China's tech is far better than they get credit for. The thing to note though which you pointed out, is that China, Vietnam or N Korea have no real experience of overseas conventional conflicts on a huge scale. There is a massive difference localised guerrilla warfare and being exposed against high tech weapons systems in the right hands on a foreign land.  

Russia are having very similar problems in Ukraine and they should be used to this by now but are still held back by politics and idiocy. They're lucky that it's only the Ukraine against them on the battlefield otherwise the humiliation would be far worse. 

 

[A'Villan]

49 minutes ago, limpid said:

Source please.

It's called the Red House Report.

I've got copies of the official documents that the French passed on to the USA, and I've read them in full.

The Guardian did an article on it.

I'll get you a copy later today if you can't source it yourself using google.

[A'Villan]

@limpid @chrisp65

@mjmooney

Quote

SUBJECT:

Plans of German industrialists to engage in underground activity after Germany’s defeat; flow of capital to neutral countries.

Quote

 

Among those present were the following:

Dr. Scheid, who presided, holding the rank of S.S. Obergruppenfuhrer and Director of the Heche (Hermandorff & Schonburg) Company

Dr. Kaspar, representing Krupp

Dr. Tolle, representing Rochling

Dr. Sinderen, representing Messerschmitt

Drs. Kopp, Vier and Beerwanger, representing Rheinmetall

Captain Haberkorn and Dr. Ruhe, representing Bussing

Drs. Ellenmayer and Kardos, representing Volkswagenwerk

Engineers Drose, Yanchew and Koppshem, representing various factories in Posen, Poland (Drose, Yanchew and Co., Brown-Boveri, Herkuleswerke, Buschwerke, and Stadtwerke)

Captain Dornbuach, head of the Industrial Inspection Section at Posen

Dr. Meyer, an official of the German Naval Ministry in Paris

Dr. Strossner, of the Ministry of Armament, Paris.

2.Dr. Scheid stated that all industrial material in France was to be evacuated to Germany immediately. The battle of France was lost for Germany and now the defense of the Siegried Line was the main problem. From now on also German industry must realize that the war cannot be won and that it must take steps in preparation for a post-war commercial campaign. Each industrialist must make contacts and alliances with foreign firms, but this must be done individually and without attracting any suspicion. Moreover, the ground would have to be laid on the financial level for borrowing considerable sums from foreign countries after the war. As examples of the kind of penetration which had been most useful in the past, Dr. Scheid cited the fact that patents for stainless steel belonged to the Chemical Foundation, Inc., New York,

and the Krupp company of Germany jointly and that the U.S.

Steel Corporation, Carnegie Illinois, American Steel and Wire,

and national Tube, etc. were thereby under an obligation to

work with the Krupp concern. He also cited the Zeiss

Company, the Leisa Company and the Hamburg-American

Line as firms which had been especially effective in protecting

German interests abroad and gave their New York addresses to the industrialists at this meeting.

3.Following this meeting a smaller one was held presided over by Dr. Bosse of the German Armaments Ministry and attended only by representatives of Hecho, Krupp and Rochling. At this second meeting it was stated that the Nazi Party had informed the industrialists that the war was practically lost but that it would continue until a guarantee of the unity of Germany could be obtained. German industrialists must, it was said, through their exports increase the strength of Germany. They must also prepare themselves to finance the Nazi Party which would be forced to go underground as Maquis (in Gebirgaverteidigungastellen gehen). From now on the government would allocate large sums to industrialists so that each could establish a secure post-war foundation in foreign countries. Existing financial reserves in foreign countries must be placed at the disposal of the Party so that a strong German Empire can be created after the defeat. It is also immediately required that the large factories in Germany create small technical offices or research bureaus which would be absolutely independent and have no known connection with the factory. These bureaus will receive plans and drawings of new weapons as well as documents which they need to continue their research and which must not be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy. These offices are to be established in large cities where they can be most successfully hidden as well as in little villages near sources of hydro-electric power where they can pretend to be studying the development of water resources. The existence of these is to be known only by very few people in each industry and by chiefs of the Nazi Party. Each office will have a liaison agent with the Party. As soon as the Party becomes strong enough to re-establish its control over Germany the industrialists will be paid for their effort and cooperation by concessions and orders.

 

4.These meetings seem to indicate that the prohibition against the export of capital which was rigorously enforced until now has been completely withdrawn and replaced by a new Nazi policy whereby industrialists with government assistance will export as much of their capital as possible.

Previously exports of capital by German industrialists to neutral countries had to be accomplished rather surreptitiously and by means of special influence. Now the Nazi party stands behind the industrialists and urges them to save themselves by getting funds outside Germany and at the same time to advance the party’s plans for its post-war operation.

This freedom given to the industrialists further cements their relations with the Party by giving them a measure of protection.

 

5.The German industrialists are not only buying agricultural property in Germany but are placing their funds abroad,

particularly in neutral countries. Two main banks through which this export of capital operates are the Basler Handelsbank

and the Schweizerische Kreditanstalt of Zurich. Also there are a number of agencies in Switzerland which for a 5 percent commission buy property in Switzerland, using a Swiss cloak.

6.After the defeat of Germany the Nazi Party recognizes that certain of its best known leaders will be condemned as war criminals. However, in cooperation with the industrialists it is arranging to place its less conspicuous but most important members in positions with various German factories as technical experts or members of its research and designing offices.

 

 

https://glwdocuments.wordpress.com/1944/11/27/the-red-house-report-07-nov-1944/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1179902/Revealed-The-secret-report-shows-Nazis-planned-Fourth-Reich--EU.html

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_House_Report

That should suffice until I can post copies of the actual documents. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by A'Villan

[limpid]

53 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

@limpid @chrisp65

@mjmooney

https://glwdocuments.wordpress.com/1944/11/27/the-red-house-report-07-nov-1944/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1179902/Revealed-The-secret-report-shows-Nazis-planned-Fourth-Reich--EU.html

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_House_Report

That should suffice until I can post copies of the actual documents. 

The Daily Mail article, an open wiki and a blog entry based on the Daily Mail article.  If you can find a primary source, or the Guardian article you mentioned, then please post those.

If these are based on anything real then the original documents will have been declassified by now.

[chrisp65]

12 hours ago, A'Villan said:

@limpid @chrisp65

@mjmooney

https://glwdocuments.wordpress.com/1944/11/27/the-red-house-report-07-nov-1944/

That should suffice until I can post copies of the actual documents. 

I won’t click on a link to the Daily Mail and I’d recommend for your long term mental health you’d stay clear of that place as well.

I’m just not sure what point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting you can see Russian elite beginning to bail out and come up with their exit plan as the regime vaulters? Or are you suggesting Germany is on course with some long term slow burn Nazi strategy? Or something else?

I’d need a fair bit of convincing that Nazi ideology is alive and well in a Europe that has more immigrants now than ever in history, that is beginning to embrace gay rights and has fought wars to protect muslim populations within Europe. But I’m not sure you were suggesting that particular conspiracy theory?

 

[magnkarl]

Worth noting that Zelensky spoke at length about how Soviet committed several atrocities against the Tatar population in Crimea in 1944 last night. This is no coincidence as Erdogan considers himself and Turkey the protector of Turks and Tatars across the world. It's one of the many flaring points between Putin and Erdogan and as usual Zelensky's timing is impeccable now that Erdogan is rattling his sabres at NATO.

Whoever is Zelensky's writer\advisor is a mastermind.

[magnkarl]

 

[ml1dch]