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maqroll

Transgenderism

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Obviously a hot button issue these days...today I read an article about a high school wrestler who is a male that identifies as a female, and he's destroying the competition, sparking some debate about if he/she should be allowed to compete against girls. IMO, it's an honest question, and with merit, but nowadays you'll get crucified for even questioning it. I support transgender rights, but where do you draw the line? In a case like this, in sport, it's so obviously unfair to the girls. What about their right to compete on a level playing field so to speak?

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8 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Obviously a hot button issue these days...today I read an article about a high school wrestler who is a male that identifies as a female, and he's destroying the competition, sparking some debate about if he/she should be allowed to compete against girls. IMO, it's an honest question, and with merit, but nowadays you'll get crucified for even questioning it. I support transgender rights, but where do you draw the line? In a case like this, in sport, it's so obviously unfair to the girls. What about their right to compete on a level playing field so to speak?

Isn't it the other way around?

A female, who identifies as a male, is transitioning, and has to wrestle girls and is winning every round even though he wants to fight against males.

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It's a subject I've wondered about since the similarly related Caster Semenya controversy some time back. Like all reasonable people I couldn't care less about people's personal likes, dislikes or how they identify themselves etc - it's none of my business.

But when it comes to sport there has to be a question of fairness. With that in mind, maybe the way to move away from male and female divisions in sport and specify limits in testosterone or something else? Almost like 'weights' in boxing etc.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Isn't it the other way around?

A female, who identifies as a male, is transitioning, and has to wrestle girls and is winning every round even though he wants to fight against males.

You're right! (It's all sort of confusing)

Nonetheless, you've got a female undergoing hormone treatment and annihilating the competition. If it was the Olympics, she/he would be disqualified.

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2 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

It's a subject I've wondered about since the similarly related Caster Semenya controversy some time back. Like all reasonable people I couldn't care less about people's personal likes, dislikes or how they identify themselves etc - it's none of my business.

But when it comes to sport there has to be a question of fairness. With that in mind, maybe the way to move away from male and female divisions in sport and specify limits in testosterone or something else? Almost like 'weights' in boxing etc.

 

 

Isn't Caster Semenya intersex though? That's completely different, and even trickier. 

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1 minute ago, maqroll said:

You're right! (It's all sort of confusing)

Nonetheless, you've got a female undergoing hormone treatment and annihilating the competition. If it was the Olympics, she/he would be disqualified.

The issue is, he wants to fight the boys! He doesn't want to keep winning easily yet archaic laws prevent him from doing so, so he keeps winning. 

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Someone biologically a man can't compete against women. Someone being transgender is unfortunately going to mean there are some things they can't do. A man who wants to be or has become a woman can't compete in an event with women.

Sport will have more of a problem with intersex people. How do you deal with a woman who by a quirk of nature is biologically capable of outperforming a normal woman? They naturally have an advantage that their peers will struggle to compete with, being women who have some elements of male physiology.

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Another scenario would be the showers. Should a male transitioning to a female or vice versa be allowed to shower and dress with girls and women, and should the feelings of the born females be considered when defining the rules, and the law?

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It's the same with the public toilet or changing room issue

Would you want a hairy bloke in his 40's getting changed next to your 6yo daughter simply because he identifies himself as a woman? 

Spoiler

Screen_Shot_2016-04-20_at_1.39.53_PM.png

Ok that meme is designed to be controversial but it does raise a valid question. 

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Just now, Keyblade said:

Isn't Caster Semenya intersex though? That's completely different, and even trickier. 

I certainly am no expert, but for both scenarios the situation is similar I would guess; whether natural, chosen, etc the fairest way to make people compete would be using ranges in something like testosterone - then in a hundred meter race whether you were intersex, transgender, female, male, young or old you could race on a level playing field if your levels fell within that events testertone levels.

HOWEVER, I am completely thinking out loud - it might make no scientific sense at all!

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1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

The issue is, he wants to fight the boys! He doesn't want to keep winning easily yet archaic laws prevent him from doing so, so he keeps winning. 

I get it, but surely there are/have been other cases where the transitioning/transitioned athlete is content to stay in the girls competition? Spitballing here..

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1 minute ago, Xela said:

It's the same with the public toilet or changing room issue

Would you want a hairy bloke in his 40's getting changed next to your 6yo daughter simply because he identifies himself as a woman? 

  Hide contents

Screen_Shot_2016-04-20_at_1.39.53_PM.png

Ok that meme is designed to be controversial but it does raise a valid question. 

It is a valid concern, IMO despite the obvious ridiculous meme

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4 minutes ago, Xela said:

It's the same with the public toilet or changing room issue

Would you want a hairy bloke in his 40's getting changed next to your 6yo daughter simply because he identifies himself as a woman? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Screen_Shot_2016-04-20_at_1.39.53_PM.png

Ok that meme is designed to be controversial but it does raise a valid question. 

Maybe have adult changing room, only children with family in family changing rooms? I am incredibly uncomfortable with the ease in which people (no one on here) are quick to think anyone unusual, or even simply single, is a risk to children.

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While I am sympathetic to the struggles than a transgender person has, I think the feelings of the other people should be considered as well... ie allowing a MTF in a female changing room may make them feel more comfortable but may make the 25 or so genetic females in the room uncomfortable. It's a difficult situation. Obviously there are some that you would never know were born a different sex until the knickers were taken off (that hazy night in Bangkok is coming back to me again!) or if they were fully transitioned and have had the snip, then who is to know?

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6 minutes ago, Xela said:

While I am sympathetic to the struggles than a transgender person has, I think the feelings of the other people should be considered as well... ie allowing a MTF in a female changing room may make them feel more comfortable but may make the 25 or so genetic females in the room uncomfortable. It's a difficult situation. Obviously there are some that you would never know were born a different sex until the knickers were taken off (that hazy night in Bangkok is coming back to me again!) or if they were fully transitioned and have had the snip, then who is to know?

I don't get this logic.

Surely you could replace trans person with 'lesbian' and the point is exactly the same?

I mean, what are the arguments against mixed changing rooms anyway? That you can't 'perv' on people of the opposite sex?

What if the MTF trans person likes men? Does that change the issue?

Also, I hate the idea that trans people are really just opportunistic paedos. I know you weren't suggesting it but that meme you posted was pretty gross.

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I believe statistically transgender people are more likely to be sexually abused than be an abuser, so the danger to children thing is probably less relevant. Kids in communal showers are more likely to have a paedophile without gender concerns be a danger.

The issue is a difficult one. I suspect the easiest answer is once you've transitioned fully you're legally a woman, and if you don't want to make that complete step you don't get the full 'privileges'.

Or we move further away from Victorian values as things normalise and this isn't a thing anymore.

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1 hour ago, Xela said:

It's the same with the public toilet or changing room issue

Would you want a hairy bloke in his 40's getting changed next to your 6yo daughter simply because he identifies himself as a woman? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Screen_Shot_2016-04-20_at_1.39.53_PM.png

Ok that meme is designed to be controversial but it does raise a valid question. 

I can honestly say that, in the situation exactly as you've described, I wouldn't care a jot. 

I've been to public baths on the continent where everybody - man, woman or child - swims, showers or saunas naked. There's nothing dangerous to children about seeing a nude body of the opposite sex. I'm not aware of any reputable psychologists who would argue otherwise. 

Obviously the situation is different if the adult were looking at children in changing rooms for their own sexual gratification, or even worse, interfering with those children in any way. But a] that is not at all a common occurrence, and it's important not to spread panic about situations that don't require it, and b] it could just as easily happen in a single-sex changing room anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Xela said:

It's the same with the public toilet or changing room issue

Would you want a hairy bloke in his 40's getting changed next to your 6yo daughter simply because he identifies himself as a woman? 

  Hide contents

Screen_Shot_2016-04-20_at_1.39.53_PM.png

Ok that meme is designed to be controversial but it does raise a valid question. 

Would you want the hairy bloke in his 40s changing next to your 6yo son?

  • Like 2

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