Scott Hogan

[bannedfromHandV]

5 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

How many goals have our strikers scored? We have a problem creating chances. Hogan won’t get a chance unless we change our style he isn’t strong enough to be a target man. I’d love to see him alongside Davis but can’t see Bruce going with a proper 2 up top again either. We need to get a goal scoring centre forward no matter who it is. 

They've barely played, Kodjia has been out for most of the season, Gabby hasn't played at all has he? McCormack is an ongoing joke of a human being, Hogan has been dreadful and injured and Davis is a 19 year old kid who made his professional debut a few months ago and is now knackered as he's had to play every game for the past 10 weeks or so.

But yeah, aside from that it's all about the style.

[dn1982]

10 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

They've barely played, Kodjia has been out for most of the season, Gabby hasn't played at all has he? McCormack is an ongoing joke of a human being, Hogan has been dreadful and injured and Davis is a 19 year old kid who made his professional debut a few months ago and is now knackered as he's had to play every game for the past 10 weeks or so.

But yeah, aside from that it's all about the style.

I was pointing out we don’t create a lot of chances. We play better with a 6ft4 CF than we do with a 5ft9 one and it’s  nothing too do with style? You seem very protective over Bruce and any of his decisions. Signing Hogan to play in a 2 as he said at the time and not giving a Davis hogan partnership a go is baffling. Our style doesn’t suit Hogan being the lone striker I feel you can’t see that i give. up. 

[Grasshopper]

On 12/12/2017 at 02:35, TRO said:

So by deduction, is Klopp and Hodgson no good......because Benteke can't score.

Benteke was prolific with us..........and.

give me a break.

that is irrelevant

you are misdirecting away from the point

[Grasshopper]

On 09/12/2017 at 16:50, bannedfromHandV said:

Were you saying this when we signed him in January? 

thats irrelevant to the the point he is making

 

[hippo]

3 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

The part after I speculated 'it could be a case of'  

I am not saying it is definately a reason but didn't want to rule it out either and so it could be a factor as to why his drop in form has happened perhaps?

I agree that we would not see the return in what we paid, but 8m is a fair price imo.

You can't just speculate that he has issues in his private life - based on zero. - you can't rule it out because it doesn't exist - unless you apply the same criteria across the whole team. So if Johnson drops a clanger on Saturday are you going to say 'ah he must have issues in his private life' 

We wouldn't get anywhere near £8m for Hogan IMO. 

[Grasshopper]

On 12/12/2017 at 15:44, TRO said:

Well we can use points all day......and no i disagree, its down to the player in the main.

like lets get the super coach from sunderland, you know the one that teaches Lewis Grabban to score 11 goals in a struggling team.

I would prefer the player thanks.

In your effort to defend yourself you have stated the obvious flaw in your explanation

a „not even super coach“ a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

[TRO]

46 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

In your effort to defend yourself you have stated the obvious flaw in your explanation

a „not even super coach“ a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

Semantics, my dear fellow, semantics.

I haven't got to defend myself......what I write ,is my opinion.

I accept others like you have differing ones.....and despite the sparring its healthy.

I have said in a previous post.....my opinions are NOT set in tablets of stone with me, they are built on logic as I see it and those in the industry who are liable to have superior knowledge on the subject.

IF someone comes along with an alternative opinion to mine and I feel its stronger, I will accept it.....If i don't ,it just becomes intransigence.....and i am really not in to that.

Edited December 13, 2017 by TRO

[Grasshopper]

On 12/12/2017 at 15:59, TRO said:

Yes and No

Klopp made it clear that he was not getting the desired movement from Benteke.

He(Klopp) failed to get that from him, presumably from working on the training ground at Melwood.....one of the worlds best managers/ coaches.

He then chose his other option.....gone.

The manager has to take responsibility for signing the player......as for scoring or even his first touch, thats down to the professional football player for me

its a team game and yes you need service, but equally the players giving  you that service need to trust you will not be wasteful with there work, its a two way street, not a one way one.....The manager equally needs to trust the player, will not be wasteful thus puuting the defence under pressure.

There are no free lunches....every player must do his bit......and if you play up front, no matter how much you dress it up......you have to score.....its what it says on the tin.

All you are highlighting there is that if a player you have doesnt suit your style - you hook him

which is what Klopp did

What Bruce did was to buy a player who didnt suit his style and played him in the hope that he would/could adapt.

in this case , the logical conclusion would be to hook the manager

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

In your effort to defend yourself you have stated the obvious flaw in your explanation

a „not even super coach“ a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

GH......Have you ever heard the term " you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"

It was probably written for folks like you who get confused between " coaches & Magicians"

[hippo]

9 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

All you are highlighting there is that if a player you have doesnt suit your style - you hook him

which is what Klopp did

What Bruce did was to buy a player who didnt suit his style and played him in the hope that he would/could adapt.

in this case , the logical conclusion would be to hook the manager

Good job that has not been applied over the years - Ron Saunders would have been sacked for signing Tommy Craig and David Geddes and Graham Taylor for signing Tony Cascarino 

[Grasshopper]

Just now, TRO said:

GH......Have you ever heard the term " you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"

It was probably written for folks like you who get confused between " coaches & Magicians"

Tro

I wrote

a bog-standard one instead of a shit one should be able to get something more out of who we have

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

All you are highlighting there is that if a player you have doesnt suit your style - you hook him

which is what Klopp did

What Bruce did was to buy a player who didnt suit his style and played him in the hope that he would/could adapt.

in this case , the logical conclusion would be to hook the manager

Hook the manager

Well there's a shock.

No what I am highlighting is coaching individual players has its limits.....you seem to allude to the notion that the coach is responsible for the players poor play.

I disagree with that.

[Grasshopper]

1 minute ago, hippo said:

Good job that has not been applied over the years - Ron Saunders would have been sacked for signing Tommy Craig and David Geddes and Graham Taylor for signing Tony Cascarino 

You have missunderstood.

Those signings had varying levels of success/failure. 

The point is

Signing a player then playing him in a different way to how they are used to/function better. THEN expecting them to adapt regardless of their physical stature being suited or not to that way

[Grasshopper]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Hook the manager 

Yes

Quote

Well there's a shock. 

No - my long standing opinion

Quote

No what I am highlighting is coaching individual players has its limits.....you seem to allude to the notion that the coach is responsible for the players poor play.  

Our players ARE good enough to play better and more effective than they do. The coaches and manager are not getting the best out of them.

Quote

I disagree with that.

your perogative

Edited December 13, 2017 by Grasshopper

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

You have missunderstood.

Those signings had varying levels of success/failure. 

The point is

Signing a player then playing him in a different way to how they are used to/function better. THEN expecting them to adapt regardless of their physical stature being suited or not to that way

Ok.

presumably, Scott Hogan, done his homework and researched on the style of football Steve was playing at Villa Park, before he joined.

He would be connected in the industry and would presumably get advice as to what he was walking in to......There were other clubs too interested in him, so he had choices.

GH.....Ryan Giggs was asked recenty about opposition players trying to stop players like him......He said.....his words not mine.......""You have to adapt"....."You have to find a way around it"....."thats what we do"

Thats what decent players do.........ADAPT.

stop looking to blame someone you don't care for and try to make it credible.

At present, we have no forward line.....not once have you recognised that in your comments....you can't get midfield players to negate that with any kind of expected success.

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Yes

No - my long standing opinion

Our players ARE good enough to play better and more effective than they do. The coaches and manager are not getting the best out of them.

your perogative

Our players are good enough to play better and more effective than they do.....but they haven't been showing it in the last few games.

THEY need to show it.

addendum

i think the crisis in the forward dep't too, is having a derogatory affect on the overall team.

[AvfcRigo82]

54 minutes ago, hippo said:

You can't just speculate that he has issues in his private life - based on zero. - you can't rule it out because it doesn't exist - unless you apply the same criteria across the whole team. So if Johnson drops a clanger on Saturday are you going to say 'ah he must have issues in his private life' 

We wouldn't get anywhere near £8m for Hogan IMO. 

Taken that one way out of context haven't you.

[Grasshopper]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ok.  

You argueing for sake, so I‘ll take you on

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

presumably, Scott Hogan, done his homework and researched on the style of football Steve was playing at Villa Park, before he joined. 

1 - was he promised something different?

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

He would be connected in the industry and would presumably get advice as to what he was walking in to......There were other clubs too interested in him, so he had choices. 

No WH chickened out

it was us or staying at Brentford

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

GH.....Ryan Giggs was asked recenty about opposition players trying to stop players like him......He said.....his words not mine.......""You have to adapt"....."You have to find a way around it"....."thats what we do" 

Ryan Giggs - one of the very few home grown World class players the PL has witnessed

Hogan WAS a CH player scoring goals in the Ch.

what a ridiculous compareson

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Thats what decent players do.........ADAPT. 

describing Ryan Giggs as decent is quite unbelievable

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

stop looking to blame someone you don't care for and try to make it credible. 

I‘m not

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

At present, we have no forward line.....not once have you recognised that in your comments....  

That is not true, we have had fit forwards for every game

and

I dont have to because its irrelevant

see below

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

you can't get midfield players to negate that with any kind of expected success.

It is our MFers who HAVE been scoring

Hourihane was played in his prefered position ONCE - he scored a hattrick

Onomah Adomah Snod and Lansbury have all done a „Kodjia“

Surely ANYONE with even only half a brain cell can see that the TEAM PLAY should be setup/adjusted/adapted to that way so to take advantage of that.

But NO you insist on defending someone whose responsiblility is to do exactly that

[Grasshopper]

......add the possibility of Grealish scoring, O‘Hare (if given the chance to play) Chester, Terry & Jedi from set pieces

What more could we ask for

10 players who can all at keast chip in

Plus

If Davis, Hogan and kebaGaby (v SHA) can also chip in

Kodjia returning (anyone have a date?)

[TRO]

46 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

You argueing for sake, so I‘ll take you on

1 - was he promised something different?

No WH chickened out

it was us or staying at Brentford

Ryan Giggs - one of the very few home grown World class players the PL has witnessed

Hogan WAS a CH player scoring goals in the Ch.

what a ridiculous compareson

describing Ryan Giggs as decent is quite unbelievable

I‘m not

That is not true, we have had fit forwards for every game

and

I dont have to because its irrelevant

see below

It is our MFers who HAVE been scoring

Hourihane was played in his prefered position ONCE - he scored a hattrick

Onomah Adomah Snod and Lansbury have all done a „Kodjia“

Surely ANYONE with even only half a brain cell can see that the TEAM PLAY should be setup/adjusted/adapted to that way so to take advantage of that.

But NO you insist on defending someone whose responsiblility is to do exactly that

• Arguing.....because I disagree with you......for the sake of it, really?..that was cheap.
• Ryan Giggs comments was not meant to be a comparison on the player ( but you read in to it what you wish, you usually do) it was the principle in what the players was saying of who's responsibility it is...."YOU HAVE TO ADAPT".....Comprende......you do go off at a tangent GH.
• What fit forwards for every game?
• Our midfielders have been scoring, but there is a difference between what actually happened and what is to be expected......you cannot expect to launch a promotion challenge EXPECTING to get by for goals by your midfield....its ridiculous.
• Well let me use the other half of my brain cell.......So, Steve Bruce sets us up in a game where a midfielder scores 3  and he learns nothing from that game and just reverts to type, because thats what he does......Rubbish.
• Onomah, Snod and Lansbury are not playing particularly well at present , thats subjective, granted......they score odd goals..........but can you rely on them to keep scoring goals, NO

I insist on defending him, when I think the claims against him are unfair, unjust, inaccurate and ill-considered.

Before, I go GH

• Please do not confuse my comments with me being happy with the standard of football, I am witnessing at Villa Park.....I am not.
• Please do not confuse my comments with me being unaware of what style of football we are currently playing and me being totally happy with it....I am not.
• But please accept my reluctance to blame the manager for all our ills......because I am not.

I read all the posts on here and I am well aware of the opinions of many posters who are against Steve Bruce......I see and reflect on many, many of our problems, but I do not relate them ALL to him.

ps that tickled me...."Hourihane was played once in his preferred position and scored 3".....how convenient to suit your argument.......write to Steve Bruce perhaps, he never noticed.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by TRO