Scott Hogan

[TRO]

On 12/7/2017 at 12:01, striker said:

Well everyone else didn't adapt to those systems immediately hence the poor run of results and the constant chopping and changing of players.

You could also argue that Hourihane is still being less effective than at his previous club due to being played in a more withdrawn role.

It wasn't difficult for Davis to adapt either was it when you consider he had been playing the same role for the U21s for quite some time prior to breaking into the first team.

Furthermore  I don't agree that Hogan should take full responsibility for his poor performances so far. He simply hasn't been played in a system that benefits his style of play nor given a reasonable amount of games by Bruce to adapt. Consequently his confidence is totally shot.

Bruce has to take a lot of the blame for spending 12m on a player that clearly wasn't going to fit the manager's preferred system.

 

Well, you could say none of them ( forwards) fit the system, because none of them are scoring.

• McCormack couldn't score when he was here and didn't look like scoring
• Gabby is constantly injured, but doesn't score when he is introduced.
• Kodjia come back from his first ankle and couldn't score, despite some neat forward play.....now out for the season again.
• Kieran has been working hard, holding the ball, but looks raw in the goalscoring dep't ( still learning) but no goals.
• Hogan has not looked like scoring....when he has a sniff.

Despite our position that is a major worry to any team with promotion aspirations.whether its the manager or the players, the most likely immediate change is the players.

I do not know what orders they are playing to, but if you play on the last players shoulder and you beat him....you are through.

thats what Grabban was doing when we played Sunderland, its not rocket science.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by TRO

[Grasshopper]

 

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do not know what orders they are playing to, but if you play on the last players shoulder and you beat him....you are through.

thats what Grabban was doing when we played Sunderland, its not rocket science.

 

I know

But Bruce knows nothing about Rockets nor Science. Unless of course a Rocket is some kind of spicy Kebab that curdles flames out of your @r$e

[striker]

13 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It has everything to do with hindsight.

 

Sure, they may not hit the ground running but you can expect them to adapt over the course of 12 months.

You can also expect them to give off some form of impression of being a professional footballer whilst adapting.

Two things he's utterly failed to do.

 

But yeah sure, console yourself with the pretense that it's all the Managers fault.

 

 

The point you refuse to accept is that Hogan went from a prolific marksman under Dean Smith to a player now totally devoid of confidence with Steve Bruce.

Your debate would be valid if Villa under Bruce played in the same way as Brenford and Hogan was still playing as he is now. Then i'd fully agree with you but Hogan is never going to be the same type of forward as Davis who is benefiting from playing the role he's accustomed to.

A further example would be asking Dwight Yorke or Gary Shaw to play like John Carew or Peter Withe. Not going to happen and that shows just how ridiculous your point of debate is in your eagerness to protect Bruce from criticism.

It's a poor signing from Bruce, not in hindsight, but with a total lack of foresight in paying 12m for a player that was never going to fit into Bruce's preferred system.

 

[Demitri_C]

Hopefully on bench for this

[bannedfromHandV]

15 hours ago, striker said:

The point you refuse to accept is that Hogan went from a prolific marksman under Dean Smith to a player now totally devoid of confidence with Steve Bruce.

Your debate would be valid if Villa under Bruce played in the same way as Brenford and Hogan was still playing as he is now. Then i'd fully agree with you but Hogan is never going to be the same type of forward as Davis who is benefiting from playing the role he's accustomed to.

A further example would be asking Dwight Yorke or Gary Shaw to play like John Carew or Peter Withe. Not going to happen and that shows just how ridiculous your point of debate is in your eagerness to protect Bruce from criticism.

It's a poor signing from Bruce, not in hindsight, but with a total lack of foresight in paying 12m for a player that was never going to fit into Bruce's preferred system.

 

Were you saying this when we signed him in January? 

 

I assume if one was bothered to look they'd find posts from you saying how poor a signing he was right? 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Heard some want him to come on. considering Milwall are crowding the defence I'm not sure how he will help. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Vive_La_Villa

[striker]

9 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Were you saying this when we signed him in January? 

 

I assume if one was bothered to look they'd find posts from you saying how poor a signing he was right? 

It isn't a question what I or anyone else on this forum thought. We didn't buy him. Bruce did.

[Stevo985]

18 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Heard some want him to come on. considering Milwall are crowding the defence I'm not sure how he will help. 

He was stripped and ready before Samba got injured.

Not sure it would have changed anything mind you.

[fightoffyour]

Still would've come on after Samba's injury if we hadn't already swapped a RB for a RB.

Not sure it would have changed anything mind you.

[mikeyp102]

I think a fit and confident Hogan, would link up really well with a fit and confident Grealish. Unfortunately, Hogan has picked up a lot of niggling injuries since being here and then when he has played he hasn't regained his confidence. Then of course Jack was out injured as well. Still hopeful he can turn it around in the later half of the season, but we now have a style of play that is getting results and unfortunately for Hogan doesn't suit his style, so it's hard for the team to adapt when he does play.

[bannedfromHandV]

On 10/12/2017 at 00:55, striker said:

It isn't a question what I or anyone else on this forum thought. We didn't buy him. Bruce did.

Right, so when the club buys a player you have no opinion whatsoever right? 

It's not that tough a question, when we signed Hogan, did you tell all and sundry about how poor a choice you thought he was?

 

[striker]

3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Right, so when the club buys a player you have no opinion whatsoever right? 

It's not that tough a question, when we signed Hogan, did you tell all and sundry about how poor a choice you thought he was?

 

To answer your question directly and as far as I can remember I thought he would be a good signing.

However that opinion was based on Hogan being played in the same way he was at Brentford. I mean none of us ( not even you) thought Bruce would spend 12m on a striker who was knocking them in for fun only to then ask that player to play in a totally different way than he was used to and expect him to hit the ground running. When Hogan started to struggle Bruce then dropped him to being a bit part player from the bench thereby ruining the player's confidence.

And, not even you would suggest looking at Hogan's physicality, he has all the hallarks of being a target man unless you are completely bonkers or up Bruce's arse? The latter of which seems the case whenever someone has the audacity to criticise Bruce.

 

 

 

 

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Right, so when the club buys a player you have no opinion whatsoever right? 

It's not that tough a question, when we signed Hogan, did you tell all and sundry about how poor a choice you thought he was?

 

Well his opinion is how he has been used. How would he know that before he played for us? You've  been too quick to jump to the managers defence you've not really paid attention to the point he is making. 

[bannedfromHandV]

4 hours ago, striker said:

To answer your question directly and as far as I can remember I thought he would be a good signing.

However that opinion was based on Hogan being played in the same way he was at Brentford. I mean none of us ( not even you) thought Bruce would spend 12m on a striker who was knocking them in for fun only to then ask that player to play in a totally different way than he was used to and expect him to hit the ground running. When Hogan started to struggle Bruce then dropped him to being a bit part player from the bench thereby ruining the player's confidence.

And, not even you would suggest looking at Hogan's physicality, he has all the hallarks of being a target man unless you are completely bonkers or up Bruce's arse? The latter of which seems the case whenever someone has the audacity to criticise Bruce.

 

 

 

 

But you're assuming he was bought to be a target man, if you believe that then there's no hope.

I'm sure Bruce had plans for him, for a combination of lots of reasons (yes, one being that we don't play exactly to his 'style') it hasn't worked out.

As has been said, it's happened before and it will happen again, I just don't see it as a reason to have a go at SB so much.

I'm not saying he's immune from criticism, but it's far from all his fault.

 

Anyway, point made. We all thought he'd be a good signing, SB included, and it hasn't worked out.

 

Ergo, hindsight is a wondeful thing, which was kind of the point I was trying to make all along.

[Czechlad]

I think the plan this year was to have Grealish behind Hogan, and now we have a chance to finally see that. I hope Bruce gives it a go. Currently Davis and Onomah aren't cutting it, so we need to try something new. 

[bannedfromHandV]

4 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Well his opinion is how he has been used. How would he know that before he played for us? You've  been too quick to jump to the managers defence you've not really paid attention to the point he is making. 

Pretty sure he can stick up for himself but thanks.

[VillaChris]

Grealish was a regular in the second half of last season. Hogan wasn't scoring then so I think people are being a bit optimistic thinking Hogan will score loads of goals.

I would like to see Jack in the team though just to freshen things up. Surprised me he's been confined to the bench six weeks after his comeback.

[striker]

45 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

But you're assuming he was bought to be a target man, if you believe that then there's no hope.

I'm sure Bruce had plans for him, for a combination of lots of reasons (yes, one being that we don't play exactly to his 'style') it hasn't worked out.

As has been said, it's happened before and it will happen again, I just don't see it as a reason to have a go at SB so much.

I'm not saying he's immune from criticism, but it's far from all his fault.

 

Anyway, point made. We all thought he'd be a good signing, SB included, and it hasn't worked out.

 

Ergo, hindsight is a wondeful thing, which was kind of the point I was trying to make all along.

No I'm not assuming he was bought to be a target man. Hogan isn't and never will be a target man but Bruce has tried to play him that way and that's my point, well part of it. Hoofing it to Hogan!! Its why Hogan hasn't been a success at the Villa because he's been asked to play in way by Bruce which is totally alien to him hence my previous comparison between trying to get John Carew and Peter Withe to play like Shaw and Yorke. That's why Hogan has been struggling. Bruce not playing him in a way that he is accustomed to.

The other part of my point is that if you are going to pay 12m plus for a forward in the Championship then you should damn well make sure you are going to set the team up in such a way to get the best out him playing ball to feet and through balls to let Hogan run off the shoulder of the defender.

Under Bruce Villa don't play that way and probably never will so it was a very poor decision from Bruce in the first place to sign Hogan and imo Bruce deserves criticism for that.

You buy the player to fit the system and not try and make the system fit the player hence why Bruce is now looking at getting another target man in to give Davis a rest. 12m too late though!!

Its nothing to do with hindsight either. It's everything to do with forward planning and concerning Hogan Bruce has got it badly wrong unless he now starts to play to Hogan's strengths with Grealish, O'Hare or Landsbury played in the number 10 role and instructed to play those through balls to Hogan. If that happens on a more regular basis then I think you will see a much more effective player.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by striker

[bannedfromHandV]

3 minutes ago, striker said:

No I'm not assuming he was bought to be a target man. Hogan isn't and never will be a target man but Bruce has tried to play him that way and that's my point, well part of it. Hoofing it to Hogan!! Its why Hogan hasn't been a success at the Villa because he's been asked to play in way by Bruce which is totally alien to him hence my previous comparison between trying to get John Carew and Peter Withe to play like Shaw and Yorke. That's why Hogan has been struggling. Bruce not playing him in a way that he is accustomed to.

The other part of my point is that if you are going to pay 12m plus for a forward in the Championship then you should damn well make sure you are going to set the team up in such a way to get the best out him playing ball to feet and through balls to let Hogan run off the shoulder of the defender.

Under Bruce Villa don't play that way and probably never will so it was a very poor decision from Bruce in the first place to sign Hogan and imo Bruce deserves criticism for that.

You buy the player to fit the system and not try and make the system fit the player hence why Bruce is now looking at getting another target man in to give Davis a rest. 12m too late though!!

 

 

 

I don't want to continue this, I don't think it's adding any value for anyone but yet again, you're placing all the blame on SB and letting Hogan off the hook entirely.

This is what's winding me up on this debate, yes SB is partly responsible but for me, the most responsible is Hogan, he has it within him to change (not into a target man, but in to some semblance of a professional footballer).

If you refuse to attribute any blame to Hogan then there's truly zero point continuing to discuss.

[striker]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I don't want to continue this, I don't think it's adding any value for anyone but yet again, you're placing all the blame on SB and letting Hogan off the hook entirely.

This is what's winding me up on this debate, yes SB is partly responsible but for me, the most responsible is Hogan, he has it within him to change (not into a target man, but in to some semblance of a professional footballer).

If you refuse to attribute any blame to Hogan then there's truly zero point continuing to discuss.

As stated before if Bruce had Villa playing the same way as Brentford and Hogan was no better I would wholeheartedly agree with you but you can't condemn a player for his performances if he is being starved of service while being asked to play in a way which is totally alien to him. At least I can't and i'm going to leave it there as we aren't going to agree.