Scott Hogan

[bannedfromHandV]

12 minutes ago, striker said:

As stated before if Bruce had Villa playing the same way as Brentford and Hogan was no better I would wholeheartedly agree with you but you can't condemn a player for his performances if he is being starved of service while being asked to play in a way which is totally alien to him. At least I can't and i'm going to leave it there as we aren't going to agree.

And if we were doing really badly I'd agree with you but the team has scored 29 goals, Hogan has not contributed 1 of those.

Yes, through selection and injury he's not had a lot of opportunity but it's not as though we're finding it really difficult to stick the ball in the back of the net.

As has been said before, even more worrying is his lacking in general play, being unable to control easy passes nor find a teammate with simple layoffs, he's bereft of confidence, obviously, and I'm sure there's a decent/good player in there, he/you/I cannot sit back and expect SB to solve the problem, Hogan needs to buckle down and show that he's worthy of consideration, that he's worthy of a £12M price tag (not that that's his fault).

 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is we want him to be better, there has to be motivation on both sides though and let's face it, it's unlikely that his non-selection is personal, so if he starts showing more in training (assuming he isn't) then he'll get a chance on matchday.

[omariqy]

5 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

And if we were doing really badly I'd agree with you but the team has scored 29 goals, Hogan has not contributed 1 of those.

Yes, through selection and injury he's not had a lot of opportunity but it's not as though we're finding it really difficult to stick the ball in the back of the net.

As has been said before, even more worrying is his lacking in general play, being unable to control easy passes nor find a teammate with simple layoffs, he's bereft of confidence, obviously, and I'm sure there's a decent/good player in there, he/you/I cannot sit back and expect SB to solve the problem, Hogan needs to buckle down and show that he's worthy of consideration, that he's worthy of a £12M price tag (not that that's his fault).

 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is we want him to be better, there has to be motivation on both sides though and let's face it, it's unlikely that his non-selection is personal, so if he starts showing more in training (assuming he isn't) then he'll get a chance on matchday.

Since the QPR game we have really struggled to make chances. We relied a lot on the counter attack and individual skill from the likes of Adomah and Snodgrass. It's not sustainable. We need to start being better with the ball, we look lost when teams sit off us. 

[KSV]

I think its time we showed a bit of belief in the lad and start him. I remember Vassell coming through.. Gregory (?) at the time said to him.. no pressure.. You will start each of the next 5 games.. go do what you can do. He went on a run. 

I think we need to do the same. Davis wont start every game and hes struggling at the minute. Start Hogan.. give him a few games from the start and surround him with intelligent footballers. Sick of us being mugged... we should be creating fear in other teams. Attack attack attack. Defences are so poor in this league..no point sitting back trying to keep them out. 

----------------------------------Johnstone---------------------------------

Elmohamady--------Terry/Samba------Chester------Taylor

-------------------------Jedinak--------Hourihane----------------------

--------------------------------------Grealish---------------------------------

--------------Snoddgrass-------------------------Adomah------------

---------------------------------------Hogan----------------------------------

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, KSV said:

I think its time we showed a bit of belief in the lad and start him. I remember Vassell coming through.. Gregory (?) at the time said to him.. no pressure.. You will start each of the next 5 games.. go do what you can do. He went on a run. 

I think we need to do the same. Davis wont start every game and hes struggling at the minute. Start Hogan.. give him a few games from the start and surround him with intelligent footballers. Sick of us being mugged... we should be creating fear in other teams. Attack attack attack. Defences are so poor in this league..no point sitting back trying to keep them out. 

----------------------------------Johnstone---------------------------------

Elmohamady--------Terry/Samba------Chester------Taylor

-------------------------Jedinak--------Hourihane----------------------

--------------------------------------Grealish---------------------------------

--------------Snoddgrass-------------------------Adomah------------

---------------------------------------Hogan----------------------------------

If the game was played on paper.....i would be confident in that team.

but sadly, it isn't.

and at the moment 3 of those players are not available as i understand.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[KSV]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

If the game was played on paper.....i would be confident in that team.

but sadly, it isn't.

Its worth a shot. Snoddgrass and Adomah work hard to track back and Grealish finally showed something off the ball of late. Mile and Hourihane can do plenty of defensive work.. our defence can hold its own.

When we have the ball.. we need to do more with it.. we cant afford to have 60% of the ball and do nothing with it. Hogan is a proper goal scorer. We just dont play to his strengths.. so why dont we? Kodjia is gone.. so we need to play around the next best striker we have. Davis would be a fantastic change off the bench to give defenders a different challenge late on. 

On paper.. you look at Wolves team and wonder why it works.. its so attacking.. who does all the defensive work? they work as a unit. Attack with flair. Thats what we need to do too. We have the players. We just dont use them correctly or to their strengths. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by KSV

[TRO]

8 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

And if we were doing really badly I'd agree with you but the team has scored 29 goals, Hogan has not contributed 1 of those.

Yes, through selection and injury he's not had a lot of opportunity but it's not as though we're finding it really difficult to stick the ball in the back of the net.

As has been said before, even more worrying is his lacking in general play, being unable to control easy passes nor find a teammate with simple layoffs, he's bereft of confidence, obviously, and I'm sure there's a decent/good player in there, he/you/I cannot sit back and expect SB to solve the problem, Hogan needs to buckle down and show that he's worthy of consideration, that he's worthy of a £12M price tag (not that that's his fault).

 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is we want him to be better, there has to be motivation on both sides though and let's face it, it's unlikely that his non-selection is personal, so if he starts showing more in training (assuming he isn't) then he'll get a chance on matchday.

I don't think we score enough or spend enough time in the opposition box.

i think our bit of success is based on resillience and doggedness....not complaining with that.

but we need to take pressure off the defence, by taking the game to  the opposition much more than we do.

but without adequate forwards, I don't know how we do.....We are just treading water fir a few weeks.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

On 12/9/2017 at 00:42, striker said:

The point you refuse to accept is that Hogan went from a prolific marksman under Dean Smith to a player now totally devoid of confidence with Steve Bruce.

Your debate would be valid if Villa under Bruce played in the same way as Brenford and Hogan was still playing as he is now. Then i'd fully agree with you but Hogan is never going to be the same type of forward as Davis who is benefiting from playing the role he's accustomed to.

A further example would be asking Dwight Yorke or Gary Shaw to play like John Carew or Peter Withe. Not going to happen and that shows just how ridiculous your point of debate is in your eagerness to protect Bruce from criticism.

It's a poor signing from Bruce, not in hindsight, but with a total lack of foresight in paying 12m for a player that was never going to fit into Bruce's preferred system.

 

So by deduction, is Klopp and Hodgson no good......because Benteke can't score.

Benteke was prolific with us..........and.

give me a break.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, KSV said:

Its worth a shot. Snoddgrass and Adomah work hard to track back and Grealish finally showed something off the ball of late. Mile and Hourihane can do plenty of defensive work.. our defence can hold its own.

When we have the ball.. we need to do more with it.. we cant afford to have 60% of the ball and do nothing with it. Hogan is a proper goal scorer. We just dont play to his strengths.. so why dont we? Kodjia is gone.. so we need to play around the next best striker we have. Davis would be a fantastic change off the bench to give defenders a different challenge late on. 

On paper.. you look at Wolves team and wonder why it works.. its so attacking.. who does all the defensive work? they work as a unit. Attack with flair. Thats what we need to do too. We have the players. We just dont use them correctly or to their strengths. 

But they pass and move and have ball control, they defend from the front, by not giving the ball away cheaply.....they are difficult to close down, because the move to receive a pass.

We conversely are static and lose the ball too easily from offensive positions, we run oit of ideas and get caught on the ball because there are no options.

If we had intelligent forwards the confidence to pass would be greater and more forthcoming.

its catch 22

ps we have looked laboured even more than normal , lately both mentally and physically.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[KSV]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

But they pass and move and have ball control, they defend from the front, by not giving the ball away cheaply.....they are difficult to close down, because the move to receive a pass.

We conversely are static and lose the ball too easily from offensive positions, we run oit of ideas and get caught on the ball because there are no options.

If we had intelligent forwards the confidence to pass would be greater and more forthcoming.

its catch 22

ps we have looked laboured even more than normal , lately both mentally and physically.

Thats my point. Thats Hogans strength. His movement and runs. Whenever he has played.. we havent had the creative ones there with him. O'Hare linked well with him when they played.. Grealish hasnt yet.. Not sure how many times he played with Snoddy either. Think he deserves a run

[striker]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

So by deduction, is Klopp and Hodgson no good......because Benteke can't score.

Benteke was prolific with us..........and.

give me a break.

Didn't Klopp inherit Benteke? Wasn't it a widely held viewpoint at the time that Klopp had Liverpool playing in such a way that it didn't suit Benteke and that's why he was eventually sold?

When Benteke was at Villa the team was set up to have him as the focal point to the extent of Westwood hitting floaty corners to him because that's the way Benteke wanted them delivered hence why he was so prolific.

I mean that kinda proves my point about Hogan does it not?

Concerning Hodgson I can't comment because I haven't seen Palace play under him other than the widely held view that Hodgson sets his teams up to be ULTRA defensive especially in their present position.

Edited December 12, 2017 by striker

[HanoiVillan]

Hodgson also inherited Benteke. I basically lean towards the @TRO side of this argument, but I can't think of a worse example than Benteke.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, striker said:

Didn't Klopp inherit Benteke? Wasn't it a widely held viewpoint at the time that Klopp had Liverpool playing in such a way that it didn't suit Benteke and that's why he was eventually sold?

When Benteke was at Villa the team was set up to have him as the focal point to the extent of Westwood hitting floaty corners to him because that's the way Benteke wanted them delivered hence why he was so prolific.

I mean that kinda proves my point about Hogan does it not?

Concerning Hodgson I can't comment because I haven't seen Palace play under him other than the widely held view that Hodgson sets his teams up to be ULTRA defensive especially in their present position.

Well we can use points all day......and no i disagree, its down to the player in the main.

like lets get the super coach from sunderland, you know the one that teaches Lewis Grabban to score 11 goals in a struggling team.

I would prefer the player thanks.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

3 hours ago, striker said:

Didn't Klopp inherit Benteke? Wasn't it a widely held viewpoint at the time that Klopp had Liverpool playing in such a way that it didn't suit Benteke and that's why he was eventually sold?

When Benteke was at Villa the team was set up to have him as the focal point to the extent of Westwood hitting floaty corners to him because that's the way Benteke wanted them delivered hence why he was so prolific.

I mean that kinda proves my point about Hogan does it not?

Concerning Hodgson I can't comment because I haven't seen Palace play under him other than the widely held view that Hodgson sets his teams up to be ULTRA defensive especially in their present position.

Yes and No

Klopp made it clear that he was not getting the desired movement from Benteke.

He(Klopp) failed to get that from him, presumably from working on the training ground at Melwood.....one of the worlds best managers/ coaches.

He then chose his other option.....gone.

The manager has to take responsibility for signing the player......as for scoring or even his first touch, thats down to the professional football player for me

its a team game and yes you need service, but equally the players giving  you that service need to trust you will not be wasteful with there work, its a two way street, not a one way one.....The manager equally needs to trust the player, will not be wasteful thus puuting the defence under pressure.

There are no free lunches....every player must do his bit......and if you play up front, no matter how much you dress it up......you have to score.....its what it says on the tin.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO

[striker]

I'm a firm believer in buying players to suit whatever system you choose to play. I would assume most managers are. I'm not in favour of trying to fit the system to the player. It generally causes too many problems with loss of form and indeed loss of confidence which I believe is the reason why Hogan has gone from a prolific striker at Brentford to one which is struggling at the Villa.

Due to being such a stark change in the player's fortunes in a short space of time, you cannot ignore the difference in what he is being asked to do under Bruce. I mean it isn't as if he had a poor touch at Brentford. As you know Brentford are a pass and move team so Hogan's touch needed to be decent to be their focal point of attack and i'm sure if Brentford took him back Hogan would flourish again in their system once he got his confidence back.

I just feel in this instance Bruce has got it wrong with the signing unless he changes tactics and plays someone like Grealish, Lansbury or O'Hare in behind Hogan to give him the type of service he is used to rather than chasing long balls in the channels or trying to be the vocal point of hoof.

I suppose TRO we can have another long debate about this, which, in the end,  isn't going to have one poster accepting and agreeing with the other viewpoint so again i'm going to leave it at that.

[hippo]

17 hours ago, striker said:

I'm a firm believer in buying players to suit whatever system you choose to play. I would assume most managers are. I'm not in favour of trying to fit the system to the player. It generally causes too many problems with loss of form and indeed loss of confidence which I believe is the reason why Hogan has gone from a prolific striker at Brentford to one which is struggling at the Villa.

Due to being such a stark change in the player's fortunes in a short space of time, you cannot ignore the difference in what he is being asked to do under Bruce. I mean it isn't as if he had a poor touch at Brentford. As you know Brentford are a pass and move team so Hogan's touch needed to be decent to be their focal point of attack and i'm sure if Brentford took him back Hogan would flourish again in their system once he got his confidence back.

I just feel in this instance Bruce has got it wrong with the signing unless he changes tactics and plays someone like Grealish, Lansbury or O'Hare in behind Hogan to give him the type of service he is used to rather than chasing long balls in the channels or trying to be the vocal point of hoof.

I suppose TRO we can have another long debate about this, which, in the end,  isn't going to have one poster accepting and agreeing with the other viewpoint so again i'm going to leave it at that.

In the case of Hogan I would disagree.

Hogan was rated as one of if not the best striker in the championship this time last year.  if you had said to any championship manager from Neil Warnock to David Wagner last Jan 'I can get you scott hogan' - I d pretty much guarantee they wouldn't have said :-

"Nah he doesn't suit our style of play"

It looked a good move at the time - but the player just hasn't delivered - not only in goals but he can scarcely bring the ball under control or pass to another team mate. 

 

[AvfcRigo82]

On 11/12/2017 at 17:10, bannedfromHandV said:

And if we were doing really badly I'd agree with you but the team has scored 29 goals, Hogan has not contributed 1 of those.

Yes, through selection and injury he's not had a lot of opportunity but it's not as though we're finding it really difficult to stick the ball in the back of the net.

As has been said before, even more worrying is his lacking in general play, being unable to control easy passes nor find a teammate with simple layoffs, he's bereft of confidence, obviously, and I'm sure there's a decent/good player in there, he/you/I cannot sit back and expect SB to solve the problem, Hogan needs to buckle down and show that he's worthy of consideration, that he's worthy of a £12M price tag (not that that's his fault).

 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is we want him to be better, there has to be motivation on both sides though and let's face it, it's unlikely that his non-selection is personal, so if he starts showing more in training (assuming he isn't) then he'll get a chance on matchday.

I see where you are coming from and as much as I agree it could be a case also that Hogan's confidence looks to have gone, issues in his private life, unable to settle in the area and is it a combination of everything combined perhaps?

I honestly think that if this is not going to work out between player/team/manager for whatever reason then can we really afford to keep him here in a hope that he does come good eventually, or do we look to offload in January?

I too would like to see the player that we signed and why we signed him but personally I think there is slim chance of that happening now at Villa.

[hippo]

3 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I see where you are coming from and as much as I agree it could be a case also that Hogan's confidence looks to have gone, issues in his private life, unable to settle in the area and is it a combination of everything combined perhaps?

I honestly think that if this is not going to work out between player/team/manager for whatever reason then can we really afford to keep him here in a hope that he does come good eventually, or do we look to offload in January?

I too would like to see the player that we signed and why we signed him but personally I think there is slim chance of that happening now at Villa.

Issues in his private life ? - where has that come from ? 

Im sure if an offer came in we would off load him. But such an offer is highly unlikely to be forthcoming IMO. 

 

[AvfcRigo82]

39 minutes ago, hippo said:

Issues in his private life ? - where has that come from ? 

Im sure if an offer came in we would off load him. But such an offer is highly unlikely to be forthcoming IMO. 

The part after I speculated 'it could be a case of'  

I am not saying it is definately a reason but didn't want to rule it out either and so it could be a factor as to why his drop in form has happened perhaps?

I agree that we would not see the return in what we paid, but 8m is a fair price imo.

Edited December 13, 2017 by AvfcRigo82

[striker]

39 minutes ago, hippo said:

In the case of Hogan I would disagree.

Hogan was rated as one of if not the best striker in the championship this time last year.  if you had said to any championship manager from Neil Warnock to David Wagner last Jan 'I can get you scott hogan' - I d pretty much guarantee they wouldn't have said :-

"Nah he doesn't suit our style of play"

It looked a good move at the time - but the player just hasn't delivered - not only in goals but he can scarcely bring the ball under control or pass to another team mate. 

 

Yeah that's fine and dandy but would they have played him in the way Bruce has? Personally I don't think so.

The lack of ball control wasn't evident at Brentford either.

Bruce has totally shattered Hogan's confidence by firstly asking him to play in a completely different way than at Brentford and then relegating him to a part time bench player coming on to chase hoof into channels or to play with his back to goal.

That simply isn't Hogan's game. He's a nippy forward who likes to spin on the shoulder of the defender to through balls.

[dn1982]

On 11/12/2017 at 17:10, bannedfromHandV said:

And if we were doing really badly I'd agree with you but the team has scored 29 goals, Hogan has not contributed 1 of those.

Yes, through selection and injury he's not had a lot of opportunity but it's not as though we're finding it really difficult to stick the ball in the back of the net.

As has been said before, even more worrying is his lacking in general play, being unable to control easy passes nor find a teammate with simple layoffs, he's bereft of confidence, obviously, and I'm sure there's a decent/good player in there, he/you/I cannot sit back and expect SB to solve the problem, Hogan needs to buckle down and show that he's worthy of consideration, that he's worthy of a £12M price tag (not that that's his fault).

 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is we want him to be better, there has to be motivation on both sides though and let's face it, it's unlikely that his non-selection is personal, so if he starts showing more in training (assuming he isn't) then he'll get a chance on matchday.

How many goals have our strikers scored? We have a problem creating chances. Hogan won’t get a chance unless we change our style he isn’t strong enough to be a target man. I’d love to see him alongside Davis but can’t see Bruce going with a proper 2 up top again either. We need to get a goal scoring centre forward no matter who it is.