National ID cards - good idea?

[tonyh29]

If you ever visit Budapest , take some time out and visit the House of terror , see the number of Hungarian people Murdered and unjustly enprisoned ,simply for not submitting to the Communist dictatorship which ruled over them ..

could similar happen in the UK ? .. probably not , but take a look at the laws passed by our government in the past years and tell me that labour hasn't moved Britain to a dangerous area ..Civil liberties , We don't even get to vote on a European treaty depsite it being a written promise by the government

[OldFart]

Wait until you get arrested for not carrying one around

A tip.

If they ever do get introduced and it is stipulated that you can get arrested for not carrying your ID card with you even when you take the rubbish out... always carry your ID card.

That way you won't get arrested. :nod:

Works every time.

[drat01]

and in the 1930's you could leave your door unlocked and the local bobby could give a young urchin a clip around the ear.

What a strange comparison Tony, inferring that on one hand we were becoming a communist state and then admitting that the laws employed by them would never happen.

The European Treaty - you are so way off with that one (and off topic) that you must have been having your daily dose of Daily Mail.

Getting back to the civil liberties I love this one because again and again its thrown up as a counter argument and then never shown where these liberties would be removed.

Getting back to ID cards, business (not government notice) are going more and more down the path that you have to be able to identify who you are, now why is that and how will they accomplish that.

[Gringo]

Wait until you get arrested for not carrying one around

A tip.

If they ever do get introduced and it is stipulated that you can get arrested for not carrying your ID card with you even when you take the rubbish out... always carry your ID card.

That way you won't get arrested. :nod:

Works every time.

But what about the erm, older members of the community, who may struggle to remember?

[drat01]

But what about the erm, older members of the community, who may struggle to remember?

lock them up or kill them when they get above a certain age. I saw that in a film so it will happen one day

[OldFart]

Wait until you get arrested for not carrying one around

A tip.

If they ever do get introduced and it is stipulated that you can get arrested for not carrying your ID card with you even when you take the rubbish out... always carry your ID card.

That way you won't get arrested. :nod:

Works every time.

But what about the erm, older members of the community, who may struggle to remember?

If you are one such and you have this problem you can tie your ID card to the end of your erm, knob.

As far as I'm concerned.

Hilariously funny as always though.

[Gringo]

Getting back to the civil liberties I love this one because again and again its thrown up as a counter argument and then never shown where these liberties would be removed.

Previously when people have talked about such liberties as the right to privacy, you have either dismissed it as being non-existent or unimportant.

Getting back to ID cards, business (not government notice) are going more and more down the path that you have to be able to identify who you are, now why is that and how will they accomplish that.

Businesses did not introduce money laundering legislation which is behind most of the requirements made for people to identify themselves. Money laundering regulations were introduced (by the govt), initially to stop the drug barons hiding their dosh, but then strengthened in light of, you guessed it, the war on terror. If however "business" did decide that they needed such a thing, then surely it is:

* up to the people, not business to decide if it is a good thing;

* up to business, not the people to foot the bill.

[Gringo]

But what about the erm, older members of the community, who may struggle to remember?

lock them up or kill them when they get above a certain age. I saw that in a film so it will happen one day

Strawman.

[drat01]

But what about the erm, older members of the community, who may struggle to remember?

lock them up or kill them when they get above a certain age. I saw that in a film so it will happen one day

Strawman.

Is this the deja vu thread?

[drat01]

Getting back to the civil liberties I love this one because again and again its thrown up as a counter argument and then never shown where these liberties would be removed.

Previously when people have talked about such liberties as the right to privacy, you have either dismissed it as being non-existent or unimportant.

Getting back to ID cards, business (not government notice) are going more and more down the path that you have to be able to identify who you are, now why is that and how will they accomplish that.

Businesses did not introduce money laundering legislation which is behind most of the requirements made for people to identify themselves. Money laundering regulations were introduced (by the govt), initially to stop the drug barons hiding their dosh, but then strengthened in light of, you guessed it, the war on terror. If however "business" did decide that they needed such a thing, then surely it is:

* up to the people, not business to decide if it is a good thing;

* up to business, not the people to foot the bill.

Again you fail Gringo with the civil liberties thing instead trying to make up things

:-) - you are getting better and better with your government conspiracy things, have you got a commission from Sky to produce one of their programmes?

Money laundering legislation has been in place for years and if you think it's not a problem then I suggest you really do need to get out a bit more

[Gringo]

Again you fail Gringo with the civil liberties thing instead trying to make up things

Make things up? So you never denied the right to privacy to be a civil liberty? OK then, the right to privacy is being eroded by an ID card and national ID database where your personal information will be (insecurely) held and then made available to anyone who wants a look? Won't it happen - well they've just done the same with your phone records - including allowing foreign countries to request access to your records. So there's a civil liberty being eroded. My information belongs to me, not the state. If you are still struggling to get to grips with the idea of privacy, may I suggest you read the essay linked to on page one.

In his work, Solove addresses the reality that privacy problems differ: Not all are equal; some are more harmful than others. Most importantly, he writes, "to understand privacy, we must conceptualize it and its value more pluralistically." Through several years of work, Solove has developed a more nuanced concept of privacy that rebuts the idea that there is a "one-size-fits-all conception of privacy."

I feel that you often fall into the one-size-fits-all trap when discussing privacy and it's meaning to different people, and that if you don't think your liberties are being infringed then nobodies are.

:-) - you are getting better and better with your government conspiracy things, have you got a commission from Sky to produce one of their programmes?

Which conspiracy theory? I simply stated that business is required to identify clients because of government legislation, not through any desire of their own. Why does a bank or solicitor care whether money is kosher or not - they don't, it's the governments that worry cos they aren't getting the tax they want.

Money laundering legislation has been in place for years

I don't think I stated anywhere that money laundering legislation was recent - I stated it had been strengthened recently.

and if you think it's not a problem then I suggest you really do need to get out a bit more

Maybe, but it's not a problem to businesses, it's a problem for government - as far as the banks are concerned it would be a lot cheaper to ignore the issue than have to get all of their staff trained in money laundering legislation, and have to build processes to report all suspect transactions.

I was merely countering the point you made that business wants to identify people, whereas they are forced to by the govt. If it is the case that business also wants to collect data on people for marketing, credit risk purposes, then surely it is:

* up to the people, not business to decide if it is a good thing;

* up to business, not the people to foot the bill.

[drat01]

And again Gringo your world of people watching your every move starts to cloud rational thought.

Your fantasy world where your every move would in some way be tracked just because you hold an ID card? For your info you would be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't how much info is held already by totally unregulated sources on your and mine lifestyles. The fact that you are logged on to VT is logged!! As I said if you want to live in 1930's England then I think only the invention of time travel will help

Business needs to know the source of the money its holding because of international and moral laws. Instead your Big brother theory clouds the issue by trying to link ID cards with Money Laundering and the flow of money through the system

I suggest if you are ever in the UK try and visit a company like Experian and see what info is held on you. I think the legislation allows you to look at it.

[lexicon]

I voted no - the money and the privacy issue being the biggest reasons for me doing so.

[Trinity-Tom]

As with most people I know, the only issue I have is the cost. If the government already have access to all the information they need which I am sure they do, how can they justify the potential £300 charge?

[Gringo]

And again Gringo your world of people watching your every move starts to cloud rational thought.

Your fantasy world where your every move would in some way be tracked just because you hold an ID card? For your info you would be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't how much info is held already by totally unregulated sources on your and mine lifestyles. The fact that you are logged on to VT is logged!! As I said if you want to live in 1930's England then I think only the invention of time travel will help

Each new straw may seem sensible in itself until suddenly we have broken the camel’s back. We find that we have crossed the line from a mature, responsible democracy into an arthritic and fearful police state. Aspects of British public administration are reminiscent of the Taliban.

I know internet usage is logged - I think I even referred to it above.

Business needs to know the source of the money its holding because of international and moral laws.

As I said - business doesn't need or want to know - it's govts that do - your earlier post made out it was business not govt driving this, which is rather misleading:

Getting back to ID cards, business (not government notice) are going more and more down the path that you have to be able to identify who you are

It's govt driving, forcing business to ask for this information.

I suggest if you are ever in the UK try and visit a company like Experian and see what info is held on you. I think the legislation allows you to look at it.

Worked at equifax for three years and experian for 18 months, including implementing the money laundering tracking system at the former - all a long time ago mind you. In those days HSBC primarily used experian for their online credit checks, though their batch tapes process was checked at both bureaus - when it didn't get lost between nottingham and bradford.

[drat01]

well gringo i bet our paths have crossed before then as i worked at hsbc

and have done a lot of work at equifax and experian

[Gringo]

well gringo i bet our paths have crossed before then as i worked at hsbc

hence the reference to the unusual tape delivery between the three companies - most company would supply one tape each to both bureaus - but I think hsbc had fallen out with equifax and would only send experian a tape, and subcontracted the onward delivery to them. It was something silly anyway - and seeing as you're a "storage" guy - thought it might ring some bells.

[drat01]

that was when the connect:direct and HFT links were established

[Gringo]

connect:direct license fees were just a glimmer in the ibm resales team's eye in my days.....anyway

Back to the bureau databases - all that information is collected, held and processed with the person's permission (that little box we tick when we apply for credit). It's personal choice, and not data collection that is imposed. The data is also confined to financially relevant information, whereas the big whitehall database will be far more extensive.

Also the use of the data is (supposedly) strictly controlled, and access to the data is supposed to be justified through additional applications for credit, or breach of contract (ie failure to make payments, or dissappearing.).

Just because there are already two (three) massive databases is not a reason to have another one with even more data.

[drat01]

A couple of points there Gringo - supposedly is the key word and how many credit card and other financial applications are refused based on your willingness to store the data?

Secondly again you keep coming back to the fictional massive database. Now is there a DB structure that is big enough to store, and provide ready access to the information you are saying would be obtained and held? Plus with all of these "tracking" things that keep getting mentioned where is the provision and technology for all of those?

Next, Experian and Equifax and lots of other companies dont just record the application for credit. Use of cards, withdraws of money, shops used in, dates in the month etc are all being processed by business on a daily basis. The figures are then used for a multitude of things, from advertising, to placement of goods to prevention of fraud etc etc. Funny how we never see any civil liberties arguments being thrown around there

Lastly IBM dont sell Connect Direct :-)