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kurtsimonw

English managers

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I believe it was @Grasshopper who made a post listing the managers at the top clubs in England, and pointed out that English managers aren't as good. While I am in agreement that the best of English managers aren't, it got me thinking that is it also down to a lack of opportunity at the top end? And why is there this lack of opportunity? It's easy to name the managers at the top 6 as very good managers - they all are - but they were all given an opportunity at a big club to show that off. Were the jobs that they did previous to getting a job at their first big club really that impressive? Was it simply down to their leagues not having 5/6 teams competing at the top and therefore they could take more gambles?

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The last 2 English managers to win the top division were called Howard.

Simply put, they are not given the chance as its not fashionable to have an English manager if you are a top team. What Howe has done at Bournemouth is superb. If he was German and doing that with a small club in the Bundesliga, he's soon be up for a top job. Take Klopp at Mainz. He even got relegated a couple of times there (I think?) but he got the Dortmund gig in 2008. Tuchel followed him and has taken the same route. Over here, Monk leads Swansea to their highest ever finish then is canned after a difficult start the next year.

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They really havent done great jobs elsewhere to get mentioned in the frame. Best English Premier League managers in 25 years off top of head is probably Redknapp, Allardyce then maybe Curbishley, Keegan, Pardew, Bruce and McLaren

off that list only Curbishley never got a big managerial job. 4 of them managed Newcastle which is a big job, 3 managed England and never convinced. Redknapp did well at Spurs in fairness

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Very few of the best English players can be bothered dropping down a few leagues to learn the trade when they retire.  They've got all the money in the world and can just sit on a sofa and talk about the game instead.  Not many of them seem very bright, either.  It's then down to 'unsexy' names who live and breathe management but just get overlooked all the time, rightly or wrongly.

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The 3 flavour of the month ones at the moment, Howe, dyche, warburton, all spent time in various youth coach and coach roles before being promoted from within, none of them were gifted a job, part of what happened to them was their club sacked the manager, brought in a new one and they got another role within the club, dyche I think got promoted from a youth coach to assistant manager, in the prem there seems to be a massive clear out when a manager is sacked, not only can the clubs afford to be care free sacking the manager after 6 months they can get rid of 10 coaches at the same time, doesn't happen in the lower leagues

one thing we always hear is about these English managers with all their badges that are sat waiting for a chance, who are they, where are they? I know he's not English but I'll use dwight Yorke as an example moaning he can't get a managers job, he hasn't gone and got himself a coaching job and proved his value, he's earned so much as a player he could afford to be a kiddy harriers coach on £100 a week if he wanted but he simply doesn't want it, he's waiting for something to come to him

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zatman said:

They really havent done great jobs elsewhere to get mentioned in the frame. Best English Premier League managers in 25 years off top of head is probably Redknapp, Allardyce then maybe Curbishley, Keegan, Pardew, Bruce and McLaren

off that list only Curbishley never got a big managerial job. 4 of them managed Newcastle which is a big job, 3 managed England and never convinced. Redknapp did well at Spurs in fairness

But do the foreign managers that become top managers in their home country do all that well to get the top job?

Chris Houghton is more qualified for the Man United job than Conte was for the Juventus job. Both massive clubs going through struggles too, yet I don't imagine there would be anything but laughter if Houghton got the job.

Dyche's at Burnley is on it's way to looking similar to Klopp at Mainz. Would Dyche get the 2nd biggest job in the country (Liverpool?) if Burnley survived for a few more years?

Jose had about 30 games managerial experience, Pep about the same with a B team before they got the #2 job in their countries.

That's 4 of the best managers in World football and, at best, you could argue they did good jobs with bad teams. Plenty of English managers do that, regularly. The difference is that top English clubs won't give the opportunity. 

Edited by kurtsimonw
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Dortmund were on the verge of collapse before Klopp took over and were nearly relegated the season before and had a poor squad. Dortmund werent a great side to manage at the time and was hardly a time when Bayern were dominating the league

Mourinho was assistant manager at Porto, Benfica and Barcelona before he took a managerial job and did quite a good job at Leiria before he got hired

Conte and Guardiola were exceptions but they were distinguished ex-players and have nearly 700 appearances between them for them clubs even though Conte had good spells in management before that

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47 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

But do the foreign managers that become top managers in their home country do all that well to get the top job?

Chris Houghton is more qualified for the Man United job than Conte was for the Juventus job. Both massive clubs going through struggles too, yet I don't imagine there would be anything but laughter if Houghton got the job.

Dyche's at Burnley is on it's way to looking similar to Klopp at Mainz. Would Dyche get the 2nd biggest job in the country (Liverpool?) if Burnley survived for a few more years?

Jose had about 30 games managerial experience, Pep about the same with a B team before they got the #2 job in their countries.

That's 4 of the best managers in World football and, at best, you could argue they did good jobs with bad teams. Plenty of English managers do that, regularly. The difference is that top English clubs won't give the opportunity. 

On the flip side Brendan Rodgers got the Liverpool job despite just one season in the premier league.

It's simply all about style of play and flexibility imo.

Too many of them are seen as tactically rigid, too much long ball etc. It's well known Abramovich does not rate British managers one little bit so they won't have one while he owns the club.

Moyes completely out of his depth at Man. United didn't help either. If he'd done well that could've opened up other opportunities, same as Brendan Rodgers winning Liverpool the league.

I do like the way Howe plays though. Fascinated to see where he goes after Bournemouth.

Only difference I'd say is managers can fail and get relegated in other countries but they still get given good clubs to progress. Wenger, Klopp and Benitez all have relegations on their CVs.

Managers here get relegated and have to drop down the leagues. Even when they don't they have to drop down like Monk did.

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Just now, kurtsimonw said:

I won't have it that Rodgers and Moyes are English.

I just mentioned them as you mentioned Republic of Ireland international Chris Hughton....:P

English, British...they usually get lumped in as the same in football terms e.g. there's not enough of either.

As I said style of play is a problem....Pulis does great jobs every season at his level but obviously isn't going to get the call anytime soon from a top 6 club, same for Big Sam and I'd imagine Dyche will go the same way.

He's done a fantastic job at Burnley and will keep them up this season which is brilliant with their budget but when you study their play it's heavily dependent on hitting Vokes early with long balls and plenty of crosses so it won't be getting Arsenal interested anytime soon.

Howe is an exception though...he certainly has an interesting style of play that fits the modern game.

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1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

I just mentioned them as you mentioned Republic of Ireland international Chris Hughton....:P

English, British...they usually get lumped in as the same in football terms e.g. there's not enough of either.

As I said style of play is a problem....Pulis does great jobs every season at his level but obviously isn't going to get the call anytime soon from a top 6 club, same for Big Sam and I'd imagine Dyche will go the same way.

He's done a fantastic job at Burnley and will keep them up this season which is brilliant with their budget but when you study their play it's heavily dependent on hitting Vokes early with long balls and plenty of crosses so it won't be getting Arsenal interested anytime soon.

Howe is an exception though...he certainly has an interesting style of play that fits the modern game.

Houghton is English though. ;)

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that there's too much to lose. Barca could hire a dog and finish top 4. Same with Porto in top 3 and so on. So the downside of a risk is limited. Here there tends to be heavier competition at the top end and the financial risk is much greater. So we tend to rely on ready made managers, which ultimately come from outside of England because unless an English manager can take a midtable side to the top 4, he's not going to get the chance.

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11 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Houghton is English though. ;)

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that there's too much to lose. Barca could hire a dog and finish top 4. Same with Porto in top 3 and so on. So the downside of a risk is limited. Here there tends to be heavier competition at the top end and the financial risk is much greater. So we tend to rely on ready made managers, which ultimately come from outside of England because unless an English manager can take a midtable side to the top 4, he's not going to get the chance.

Houghton is Scottish :)

Hughton is English :P

 

Anyway,  English managers

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14 hours ago, VillaChris said:

I just mentioned them as you mentioned Republic of Ireland international Chris Hughton....:P

English, British...they usually get lumped in as the same in football terms e.g. there's not enough of either.

As I said style of play is a problem....Pulis does great jobs every season at his level but obviously isn't going to get the call anytime soon from a top 6 club, same for Big Sam and I'd imagine Dyche will go the same way.

He's done a fantastic job at Burnley and will keep them up this season which is brilliant with their budget but when you study their play it's heavily dependent on hitting Vokes early with long balls and plenty of crosses so it won't be getting Arsenal interested anytime soon.

Howe is an exception though...he certainly has an interesting style of play that fits the modern game.

Yes Howe is the exception but I think the old style English managers like Sam and Pullis will die out and I think we'll see more modern English managers in the future. Rodgers is more of a modern style manager and I don't think he really failled at Liverpool, they just didn't replace Suarez but Klopp is another level entirely. just see the way he has improved Adam Lallana as a player.

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I think English managers are no different to English players in that they won't push themselves to find jobs in other leagues. Wenger went to Japan, Jose (and Rafa) have been all over Europe and Pep went to Germany. It's only Klopp and Conte in a top job that have come from their respective domestic leagues.

Woy gave it a go and Gary Neville's mate got him the gig in Spain, but where are the applications from all these guys that are just dying to be given a chance*?

 

*as long as that chance isn't too far from their house.

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Seriously though.  Why would foreign clubs in the larger leagues hire English managers if top English clubs won't even hire them?  I know there are some English/British managers in the minor leagues around Europe quietly going about their business and maybe one of them one day will become the next Woy Hodgson in the same way he made his name.  I just don't see the incentive when there are comparitively few fully qualified English coaches when compared to their continental rivals.  Cost of qualification is a big disincentive thing too.

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I think there is a problem.

I mean why won't people give former top players that have not proven themselves as managers jobs? I mean the likes of Tony Adams, Shearer, John Barnes, Sherwood. Good strong candidates who know the PL.

What do the likes of Klopp and Pochettino have over them?

I don't get it.

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I think it's mainly down to being too much risk here. If a top team hires a dud then the financial impact is going to be huge because of the competition at the top end. It's not likely to be as drastic in other major leagues. 

Luis Enrique - Barcelona job after 82 games top flight experience (Failed to qualify for Europe with Roma - first time since the mid 90s)
Mourinho - Porto job after 31 games top flight experience
Conte - Juventus job after 14 games top flight experience (sacked with Atalanta in 19th)
Guardiola - Barcelona job after 0 games top flight experience
Zidane - Madrid job after 0 games top flight experience
Villanova - Barcelona job after 0 games top flight experience

Because of the risk, the Premier League top sides want the ready made thing at the top end. They want Champions League experienced guys, winners, etc. I think it's also quite noticeable that the majority have strong links to the big club that gave them a chance. The media here doesn't help, I remember Giggs wanting the United job and the idea was laughed at. Not English, but why not? Because United couldn't afford the risk.

Edited by kurtsimonw

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The answer is easy to see if you want to take the blinkers off and stop living in denial.

England won the WC in 1966. Jack Charlton was the only one from that "success level" to do anything at managerial level.

When English clubs dominated Europe, how many of those players managed?

How many were English?

Who was successful?

Who were the managers?

Were they English?

The only club to have continual success while changing managers was Loserpool.

Take a look at an club/national team who have built up for success then sustained it. You will notice a clear "Club/Team pattern" that continually works.

i.e

60/70/80's Liverpool, Fergies Utd, Arsenals Wenger, Bayern Munich. The now Barca, Germany, Spain, 90's France.

And what do we English do?

Constantly "Start all over again" a "New direction" Copy systems/style that are "not our thing"

So we have no fundament for prolonged success for players, Teams, Managers & England to rely on as a playground of success.

There for anyone resembling a "shining light" remains just a shining light.

Attitude & mentality is probably our biggest downfall.

Just take a few successful & respected foriegn managers at press conferences.

Wenger, Conte, Klopp, Puel, Pochy.....

They all answer Journo's Q's as if the journos know what they are talking about.

A British manager, Sam, Pulis, Pardew and the like are either trying to avoid giving the press a Spin-line or doing their best to give one.

Van Gaal was the funniest for me. I had the feeling that he thought the press should actually understand what he was talking about. All those bizarre interviews were because he tried to take the Q's seriously, when in fact they were just loaded Q's for effect.

So after half a Century of empty promise with a few scattered shining lights popping up now and again we are now at the stage where the whole of the footbaling world have overtaken us and left us trailing way behind.

We try a quick fix now and again, start a fresh everytime nothing comes of what is tried.

leaving us with

Limited Players

Limited coaches

Limited Managers

&

Limited Success

I always find it amazing how small countries produce world class players from humble means, yet we have the money and facilities to produce World class players from English players (a "Big" football nation) Welsh, Irish (both) & Scottish all of a relatively small footballer populus, but dont.

One day we're going to have to wake up, smell the coffee and realise we are shit and will remain so untill we do something about it.

But hey we are English the insular. We have the best league in the world and we invented football twice - once in the 1800's and again in 1992.

Wemb-er-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey

 

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20 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

I think it's mainly down to being too much risk here. If a top team hires a dud then the financial impact is going to be huge because of the competition at the top end. It's not likely to be as drastic in other major leagues. 

Luis Enrique - Barcelona job after 82 games top flight experience (Failed to qualify for Europe with Roma - first time since the mid 90s)
Mourinho - Porto job after 31 games top flight experience
Conte - Juventus job after 14 games top flight experience (sacked with Atalanta in 19th)
Guardiola - Barcelona job after 0 games top flight experience
Zidane - Madrid job after 0 games top flight experience
Villanova - Barcelona job after 0 games top flight experience

Because of the risk, the Premier League top sides want the ready made thing at the top end. They want Champions League experienced guys, winners, etc. I think it's also quite noticeable that the majority have strong links to the big club that gave them a chance. The media here doesn't help, I remember Giggs wanting the United job and the idea was laughed at. Not English, but why not? Because United couldn't afford the risk.

Massive part down to foreign ownership for me too - the attraction is "big names" to get foreign players in, build the brand abroad etc.  The emphasis isn't the same in, say, Spain or Italy or Portugal where the majority of signings are domestic.

The situation at Blues highlights the problem - Rowett sacked whilst doing well to bring in Zola because... well, he's Zola innit.

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