limpid Posted December 26, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Jimzk5 said: I don't believe in global warming, Science doesn't care what you believe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 27, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted December 27, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 15 hours ago, limpid said: What does "the fall" have to do with "the whole environmental thing"? "The fall" describes a story where an all-knowing god created three creatures, knowing exactly what each would do and then punished them and their descendants in perpetuity for doing it. You're going to have to explain what you mean by "environmental thing" as I don't see how it even vaguely relates, let alone "replays exactly". (We'll ignore the fallacy that you can't "replay" something which never happened.) Climate change is not an "apocalypse". It's a change in climate, not destruction of the planet. It's going to force changes on us that we don't need to make if we can stop making it worse. Climate change is nothing more than a change in the climate. If it changes enough it may make life harder until we reach a new equilibrium (probably with a lot fewer human beings in it). I don't know about you but I am sitting here surrounded by the signs and symbols of pagan and Christian mythology. If these myths persist why would anyone deny that the myth of the fall doesn't also persist in the collective imagination? And runaway climate change definitely sounds like an apocalypse to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 27, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 27, 2016 44 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: I don't know about you but I am sitting here surrounded by the signs and symbols of pagan and Christian mythology. I don't see how that's pertinent to the discussion at hand. 45 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: If these myths persist why would anyone deny that the myth of the fall doesn't also persist in the collective imagination? Please explain this; I don't see how it's relevant. The Biblical "fall" has nothing to do with the end of the world if that is what you are suggesting.. 46 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: And runaway climate change definitely sounds like an apocalypse to me. You've added the word "runaway" which no-one has mentioned in this thread. Strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 43 minutes ago, limpid said: I don't see how that's pertinent to the discussion at hand. Please explain this; I don't see how it's relevant. The Biblical "fall" has nothing to do with the end of the world if that is what you are suggesting.. You've added the word "runaway" which no-one has mentioned in this thread. Strawman. The fall is about humans being banished from Eden because they ate of the tree of knowledge. The 'environmental thing' is about how the knowledge of industrialisation has polluted the planet which threatens its viability to support life and Man will be banished. Mentioning runaway climate change is not a strawman because I am not trying to refute your view, I am doing what you asked, explaining what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 27, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted December 27, 2016 On a forum which has often specialised in reaches for metaphors, that's one helluva reach. And seems utterly utterly useless with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 27, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 27, 2016 12 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: The fall is about humans being banished from Eden because they ate of the tree of knowledge. The 'environmental thing' is about how the knowledge of industrialisation has polluted the planet which threatens its viability to support life and Man will be banished. "Banished" implies something doing the banishing. In your analogy who fulfils this role? The fall required a protagonist who defined all the conditions of the test and knew that the characters would "fail" the test. Who is the protagonist in your analogy?4 15 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Mentioning runaway climate change is not a strawman because I am not trying to refute your view, I am doing what you asked, explaining what I meant. You added the word "runaway" which makes it a strawman. No-one is talking in this thread about anything "runaway". You introduced that to the discussion in order to bolster your position. This is the definition of a strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 33 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: The fall is about humans being banished from Eden because they ate of the tree of knowledge. I thought it was a warning that if you bring your own food to a cafe, you'll be asked to leave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 18 minutes ago, limpid said: "Banished" implies something doing the banishing. In your analogy who fulfils this role? The fall required a protagonist who defined all the conditions of the test and knew that the characters would "fail" the test. Who is the protagonist in your analogy?4 You added the word "runaway" which makes it a strawman. No-one is talking in this thread about anything "runaway". You introduced that to the discussion in order to bolster your position. This is the definition of a strawman. No one is doing the banishing, your assumption is wrong. You stated that climate change is not an apocalypse, I said that the scenario known as runaway climate change amounted to one. I am not arguing against you and so you can't claim that I am misrepresenting your argument by substituting a strawman. You are assuming that your own unexpressed definition of climate change is known to me but you would need to state your terms before you can accuse me of misrepresenting it. You have not presented an argument you have just disagreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 27, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 27, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: No one is doing the banishing, your assumption is wrong. I haven't made an assumption. Either your analogy was awful or you don't understand the word. To banish is to send away. It is an action which requires an executor. In your analogy, who have you cast as the executor? 4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: You stated that climate change is not an apocalypse, I said that the scenario known as runaway climate change amounted to one. I am not arguing against you and so you can't claim that I am misrepresenting your argument by substituting a strawman. You are assuming that your own unexpressed definition of climate change is known to me but you would need to state your terms before you can accuse me of misrepresenting it. Climate change is not an apocalypse. It's a change in climate. You have introduced the word "runaway" in an attempt to bolster your case. You have substituted "climate change" with "runaway climate change" as a strawman. I don't think you know what a strawman is. You are quite right that I (nor anyone else) has defined what we mean be climate change in this thread. I've done that in the "climate change " thread. 4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: You have not presented an argument you have just disagreed. There is no obligation on me to present an argument. I was responding to your assertions. I think that you recognise that climate change is man made. To allege that environmentalism might be an invention of capitalism or that the Biblical fall is in some way analogous to environmental apocalypse seems bogus. That's what I'm arguing with. Edited December 27, 2016 by limpid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 The 'banishing' could easily be done by 'nature' 'mother earth' 'the spirit of the wild' 'native american ghosts' 'jehu'. Let's not get overly literal. Words are for conveying ideas. I can see the body of earth rejecting the grit in its eye or the cancer in its belly or however else you want to flower up the language. Hell, if you really took a long toke, you could possibly even imagine an argument where Adam and Eve weren't actually two people, but 'the people'. It fits perfectly well with today's crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 1 hour ago, limpid said: I haven't made an assumption. Either your analogy was awful or you don't understand the word. To banish is to send away. It is an action which requires an executor. In your analogy, who have you cast as the executor? Climate change is not an apocalypse. It's a change in climate. You have introduced the word "runaway" in an attempt to bolster your case. You have substituted "climate change" with "runaway climate change" as a strawman. I don't think you know what a strawman is. You are quite right that I (nor anyone else) has defined what we mean be climate change in this thread. I've done that in the "climate change " thread. There is no obligation on me to present an argument. I was responding to your assertions. I think that you recognise that climate change is man made. To allege that environmentalism might be an invention of capitalism or that the Biblical fall is in some analogous to environmental apocalypse seems bogus. That's what I'm arguing with. We will never agree on this. Every time I see a picture of polar bear stuck on a small piece of ice under an emotive headline and I'm subjected to some sanctimonious sermon of certainties on TV, which is presented with a background of the latest footage of an extreme weather event, it looks like blatant propaganda to me, and I see it as egregious manipulation of people by inducing atavistic anxieties and guilt implanted by religious indoctrination. You disagree and there's no point continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 27, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 27, 2016 26 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: You disagree and there's no point continuing. Science doesn't care what you think. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, limpid said: Science doesn't care what you think. Great, you object to my use of the word 'banish' and then suggest that science is sentient and is capable of caring about what people believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Great, you object to my use of the word 'banish' and then suggest that science is sentient and is capable of caring about what people believe. You're joking? I've never known somebody take things so literally in a way to back up their point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: You're joking? I've never known somebody take things so literally in a way to back up their point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 I vote green. I've donated a small about to them too. It's nowhere near enough. But it's something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jon said: I vote green. I've donated a small about to them too. It's nowhere near enough. But it's something. Are we talking enough for some leaflets to be printed or enough for Lucas to fly off on a fact finding mission to Palestine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: Are we talking enough for some leaflets to be printed or enough for Lucas to fly off on a fact finding mission to Palestine Lucas will be flying by solar powered plane soon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 27, 2016 Author Share Posted December 27, 2016 Air travel is a huge contributor to global warming. Being able to either reduce air travel as much as possible or find more efficient propulsion systems will have to be the goal there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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