"Political Correctness"

[MakemineVanilla]

16 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Got a source for this? I can find people criticising him, but not a single mention of him being threatened with the sack, nevermind imprisonment.

All the law that you're probably referring to, Bill C-16, aims to do is to protect transgender people from discrimination, they currently aren't protected in the same way that gay people are, for example. It's not a law enforcing you using people's preferred pronouns, nor is it even that likely that this would be covered, in fact, the section that the bill has added 'gender identity or expression" to is an existing law against hate speech and advocating genocide. I'm not a canadian lawyer, nor am I legally qualified in any other nation, however I feel it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that not using someone's preferred pronoun is going to be construed as either hate speech or advocating genocide. It's a law that already exists to protect several protected classes, that is simply being extended to protect the trans community. There's no mention of pronouns, and there's absolutely no chance that it's being used over such a frivolous matter.

It's a misunderstanding, that the lecturer in question has spread about to try to get some support for "PC going mad", that has little basis in fact.

 

Try http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/jordan-peterson-the-right-to-be-politically-incorrect

[HanoiVillan]

17 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Try http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/jordan-peterson-the-right-to-be-politically-incorrect

The main conclusion I draw from reading that is that you obviously don't need much in the way of intellectual seriousness to attain tenure at the University of Toronto. I found it a little difficult to take him seriously after reading the lines:

'First, I will never use words I hate, like the trendy and artificially constructed words “zhe” and “zher.” These words are at the vanguard of a post-modern, radical leftist ideology that I detest, and which is, in my professional opinion, frighteningly similar to the Marxist doctrines that killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century.'

Not a great advert. 

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Try http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/jordan-peterson-the-right-to-be-politically-incorrect

That supports neither of your claims. His employer asked him to shut his mouth and stop giving them bad PR, I see no claims he's been threatened with the sack or prison. Though, for clarity, I'd have no problem with them sacking him for it, freedom of speech shouldn't protect you from your employer's code of conduct. 

It's also filled with other blatant misinformation. He claims that New York is threatening to fine businesses up to $250m "if owners or employees refuse to speak to each other properly". First, the actual number is $250,000, not $250m, also, the law is actually intended to deal with harrashment in this way. As the NYC human rights commissioner put it;

Quote

Accidentally misusing a transgender person's preferred pronoun is not a violation of the law and will not result in a fine...In fact, our guidance encourages people to ask transgender and gender non-conforming individuals how they would like to be addressed. The law is meant to address situations in which individuals intentionally and repeatedly target transgender and gender non-conforming people with this type of harassment. Transgender and gender non-conforming people experience discrimination on a daily basis, from exclusion from bathrooms to verbal harassment and even violence. We issued this guidance last year so employers and individuals understand what the law says and to ensure that every transgender individual in New York City is treated with the respect and dignity they deserve.

I find his claims that trans people wanting to be addressed with the gender of their choice is some sort of marxist style oppression from the 'radical left' to be so absurd it was quite entertaining.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Davkaus

[HanoiVillan]

[blandy]

7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

It doesn't meet a legal definition, no, but he's pretty clearly suggesting that violence is the correct response to abuse. 

Sorry, HV, I wasn't trying to argue against you, I was just putting my take on what he twittered. If I'm honest, it's the ignorance not the implicit violence that gets me. I mean children being raped by an adult abuser is horrific beyond belief, and anyone expressing a sentiment about "sorting out" the offender is not going get me criticising them (even though the law etc and so forth). It was the implication that the victims were somehow lesser people than Rugbyists or dartists, because they didn't do something stupid years later. It's the total lack of comprehension he displayed -  i.e. he was probably drunk and is a monumental pillock.

[maqroll]

College kids in America with their triggers and safe spaces is really taking the piss. Grow the **** up. Youth sports leagues that don't crown champions, and instead give all the teams "participation trophies". As if there aren't meaningful life lessons to be learned by winning graciously and losing with honor. We are turning into a nation of wet noodles.

[maqroll]

Oh yeah, also "The N Word". Ridiculous babying down of the populace. Say the word, and trust the listener to interpret it in it's intended context. Hopefully you're not using the word to insult anyone..and if not, and they still get upset, to hell with them, they're not worth talking to anymore because they're total idiots!

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by maqroll

[Brumerican]

16 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

I'll get in and out of  this thread before the obligatory Stewart Lee sketch  ....

 

 

 

 

Well in fairness there isn't much Jim Davidson stuff on youtube .

[coda]

I mentioned this in the reading thread. It's very relevant to Bristow's faux pas: 

[sexbelowsound]

19 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I trained as a teacher.

The idea is solid. Some children will never put their hands up to answer a question and some will want to answer every single question. I banned putting hands up for some lessons, just to get every child to have a chance to have their voice heard. I even had a little pot of ice lolly sticks with their names on.

However, it simply isn't practical all of the time. I'd forget, the kids would forget. Some kids aren't going to answer whether you force them to or not and some will put their hands up anyway and they aren't doing anything wrong so it would be silly to punish them.

But, that has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. It's a teaching method promoting inclusiveness. Not entirely practical, but still.

It's silly to label, what is a good idea in practice, as political correctness with a rolling eyes smiley. it simply isn't an example of PC culture and it dilutes the phrase, much like being offended too easily does on the other end of the spectrum.

What he said.

I use it sometimes but as a technique it can also terrify the bejesus out of some children who just don't have the confidence.

Mini whiteboards is another way of doing it where all can share but their peers don't see their answers.

If you just do the 'hands up' approach and get the same children answering every question you'll fail an Ofsted observation for not promoting a positive, safe, inclusive learning environment. 

[Daweii]

8 hours ago, maqroll said:

Oh yeah, also "The N Word". Ridiculous babying down of the populace. Say the word, and trust the listener to interpret it in it's intended context. Hopefully you're not using the word to insult anyone..and if not, and they still get upset, to hell with them, they're not worth talking to anymore because they're total idiots!

 

"Context"... That is very important and one of the greatest assets of the English language.

Now I'm not smart enough to use the N word in a way that wouldn't come across as offensive, so I don't, but I also understand that it can be used as a greeting in some communities so heard in that context the word carries no weight.

Context is very important;

"Gay" is a word that can mean so much depending on the context.

In school playground culture "Gay" can often times replace "Bad", but not in an insulting way. "Oh man! That was **** Gay. The ref should have given that foul" is so much different to "I hate Gay people". One is a potentially offensive opinion. The other is creative use of language if not a bit immature. 

I just wish that we didn't live in such a reactionary climate these days. So many people are quick to overreact before actually thinking and digesting what it is they reacted to and it's becoming a huge issue.

I am 28. I grew up in a time where so many "bad" words were colloquially used in place of something else. Not to be offensive but as an expression of freedom and creativity. Yes now that I'm older I understand that it's not as creative as I thought it was when I was 12, but these words have all but been barred from daily use because people can't seem to understand context anymore.

Language is language. It can be used as a weapon, but it's so easy, or should be so easy to tell when language isn't being used as a weapon. "Shut the **** up N****" is so much different to "What's up my N****" yet I'd likely still get annihilated in this day and age for using the latter. 

2016... The age of the overly-sensitive. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

For me extreme manifestations of political correctness seem to be going on at university campuses across countries like the UK and US. Ridiculous things such as 'safe spaces' and the worrying trend of 'no platforming' are particularly poisonous IMO. I simply do not agree that if enough people disagree with an individuals views that they should be shouted down and out of existence - which is basically the NUS trump card these days. I think stupid and even dangerous ideas need a platform precisely so that they can be debated and exposed for how ridiculous they are, rather than be pushed underground where they become more attractive to like-minded people. 

'Political correctness gone mad' gets over used but I am concerned that there's a generation of individuals leaving university with no debating skills or capacity to reason but rather their stock response to things that they do not like is to shout and cry. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I am concerned that there's a generation of individuals leaving university with no debating skills or capacity to reason but rather their stock response to things that they do not like is to shout and cry. 

That's certainly what's getting reported when the likes of Germaine Greer and the Gay rights man get "no platformed" and it seems bonkers, this snowflake thing. People should get exposed to different ideas, perspectives, arguments and thinking when they go to big school.

On the other hand, sometimes no platforming seems like a good idea - people proposing hate, misogyny and such like, I mean why should they be given a kind of elevated platform to spout bile?

[sexbelowsound]

Using 'gay' to mean something is bad or wrong is something we used to say a lot growing up but I don't think any of us harbored any actual homophobia as you alluded to.

That being said, as you grow up and become more socially aware it is your duty to minimise sayings and phrases that may be deemed offensive by others. I'm not one for going over the top with political correctness, in fact I would say i'm not very P.C at all, but I've definitely lost that saying from my vocabulary. 

Working in an inner London school I've noticed that students racially insult each other all the time but I don't think I've ever once seen a child react towards it in a way that suggests they've been racially abused in the 7 years I've been teaching.

I do think that cultural melting pots like London are actually going to produce a generation of people that are far more relaxed and open about race and gender that in many ways goes against the grain of modern society. How that turns out however remains to be seen.

[The_Rev]

23 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

I don't think that's racist tbh , it's akin to saying why don't we get a music of white origin award like what them black people do with their MOBO's ... she's probably from Yorkshire and just saying what she thinks

She lives in France according to her Twitter profile.  Seem's she's spent most of the past 24 hours dealing with the fallout from that tweet too.  Anyway, that's not why I quoted you, I saw something on Reddit yesterday which kinda addresses your MOBO point.  It's from a guy who is in America who's directly addressing the Alt Right and is more geared to the USA where a lot of people are still old enough to remember Jim Crow and a lot of white people still look romantically at Europe but there's enough in there to apply to this thread too:

Quote

What White Nationalists Don't Get
A common and seemingly reasonable argument for white pride or white nationalism is "why can't I be proud of my culture?"
Well, you can. Always have been able to. We have Irish pride celebrations, we have German drinking festivals, we have Serbian food festivals. Any European culture you can think of has multiple organizations in North America dedicated to taking pride in their heritage and NO ONE gives them shit for it.
But, you see, when you start talking "white pride", that's not a culture. That's a skin colour. There is no white culture, never was. There is no pan-European culture, never was. Europe is a continent, not a culture or ethnicity.
Now, some of you are probably about to go "But wait! Black pride! How is that okay?" Well, easy. Go find a black person and ask them if their ancestors were slaves. When you find one who says "yes", proceed to ask them "what country in Africa were your ancestors from?" Do you know what their answer will probably be? "I don't know." This is because their culture was taken from them. It was beaten out of them. They were enslaved, Christianized, and then white washed. The one unifying feature they have as a people is that history of slavery and that history of being black. They can't have Liberian pride, or Congolese pride, or "insert African country" pride because they have no **** idea where their ancestors came from other than the broad region of West Africa.
Meanwhile us white people can often trace our ancestors to specific cities and regions. I can trace my mother's maiden name to a single **** village in Ireland. I know where I came from. I don't have white culture, I have Irish culture.
So that's why white pride makes you an asshole but black pride actually makes sense.

 

[sexbelowsound]

12 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

For me extreme manifestations of political correctness seem to be going on at university campuses across countries like the UK and US. Ridiculous things such as 'safe spaces' and the worrying trend of 'no platforming' are particularly poisonous IMO. I simply do not agree that if enough people disagree with an individuals views that they should be shouted down and out of existence - which is basically the NUS trump card these days. I think stupid and even dangerous ideas need a platform precisely so that they can be debated and exposed for how ridiculous they are, rather than be pushed underground where they become more attractive to like-minded people. 

'Political correctness gone mad' gets over used but I am concerned that there's a generation of individuals leaving university with no debating skills or capacity to reason but rather their stock response to things that they do not like is to shout and cry. 

I remember at University in East London there would often be rallies and demonstrations going on. I remember walking through the atrium and there was a demonstration going on against the organisation the preceded UKIP (I forget their names). Anyway, as we were walking through and people ahead of us who refused to sign their petition were branded as 'racists'.

This sort of bullying and anti-discourse was rife at that place and I was just a student studying illustration and graphic design, not politics, or a subject that requires debating skills.

It's something that stuck with me even too this day. 

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

Some people are just too quick to take 'offence' and, as MMV rightly said, social networks give them a public platform to do so, which the media then use to fill column inches: "People took to Twitter to express their outrage about the offensive comments".

Some comments are mindless - Bristow is a good example - but other stuff, it's not so bad, but some people almost want to be offended (and what being offended actually means or does to a person is a different debate).

Dr Matt Taylor: a great scientist who should have been enjoying a wonderful achievement was reduced to tears and had to apologise because he wore a shirt with scantly clad women on it. Forget the fact that he'd just achieved one of mankind's greatest feats, let's castigate him on Twitter because of his 'sexist' (!?!?) shirt.

Ellen: posted a photo of her getting a piggyback from the fastest man on earth, who enjoyed the photo himself, but others said it was vile and racist.

Protein World: tried to promote a healthy lifestyle product, but were forced to remove their adverts because fat words removed said they were body shaming. FFS. It's a protein company; they're not going to use Adele as their poster girl. Whilst I think the company sells a lot of shite, I give PW a lot of respect for not backing down and taking the sensitive idiots on.

It's examples like this that so called "snowflakes" need to get a grip of reality on.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[Seat68]

3 hours ago, coda said:

I mentioned this in the reading thread. It's very relevant to Bristow's faux pas: 

Read this a couple of months back, quite interested in twitter virtual pitchforks, this didn't disappoint.

[peterms]

18 hours ago, Awol said:

Trump & Le Pen are making political mileage by mirroring & amplifying opinions that already exist in swathes of mainstream society

Like an arsonist starting a brush fire with a lens.  That kind of mirroring and amplifying.

[HanoiVillan]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

That's certainly what's getting reported when the likes of Germaine Greer and the Gay rights man get "no platformed" and it seems bonkers, this snowflake thing. People should get exposed to different ideas, perspectives, arguments and thinking when they go to big school.

On the other hand, sometimes no platforming seems like a good idea - people proposing hate, misogyny and such like, I mean why should they be given a kind of elevated platform to spout bile?

It's just this, isn't it. Like all sorts of issues, there's a balance. Yes, there are some pretty pathetic people who seem to want to be insulated from any opposing opinion, and that's particularly not good for students, 'the spirit of intellectual inquiry' and all that. But we also know that the best predictor for radicalisation is having a radical in the family or peer group, or being regularly in contact with a radical authority figure, like a priest or imam. Sometimes 'sunlight' isn't 'the best disinfectant' because the sunlight is actually bullshit and bullshit doesn't disinfect anything. Quite the opposite in fact.