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"Political Correctness"


StefanAVFC

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It's all part of the post Brexit, post Trump world we live in now.

"Freedom of speech mate, innit? You can't even put dog shit through your Pakistani neighbour's letterbox these days, without some bed wetting, cardigan wearing, Quarn munching, dike getting offended. World's gone mad, etc etc."

We had a bunch of Nazis marching through our town the other week. Proper Nazis too, not just Britain First / EDL types. Talking to a colleague about me going on a counter demo, and he couldn't get his head round why. He kept saying, I don't agree with them, but they've got the right to say what they want, and sighted "freedom of speech". I told, no they haven't. Freedom of speech in the UK, does not give you the right to insight racial or religious hatred. People seem to think that we they can say what they want now, and not be held accountable for it, because freedom of speech is a magic, get out of jail free card. That's not the case though. As I explained to him, if it were, I could walk up to my boss, call him a word removed, and then go, "Can't sack me, freedom of speech."  

Edited by dAVe80
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4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:
4 hours ago, LakotaDakota said:

Schools are now introducing mixed/unisex toilets for students over the age of 8 so trans & non-binary kids have a "safe space" where they can feel respected.

The first half of your sentence has nothing to do with your second.

Not my sentence, This is apparently the reasoning/justification used...

Executive headteacher Kath Wheeler welcomed the introduction of full-height unisex cubicles for pupils aged 8 and up, while younger children use toilets in or attached to their classrooms. Ms Wheeler said the toilets have created safe spaces where pupils show respect towards each other and feel respected.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2016-11-26/row-over-unisex-loos-as-same-sex-toilets-for-pupils-over-eight-installed-at-east-london-school/

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1 hour ago, blandy said:

What he said was ignorant and stupid. But that's it - he was just a blowhard ex-darts player with a twitter account and probably full of booze. He was being a dick.

He has also lost his job because of it although quite how saying he would have gone back and beaten someone up when able if they had abused him stops him from talking about darts on the tv is another matter, At least he said it on a public forum i guess and can see why tv companies with advertisers would want to disassociate themselves from him.

Keyes/Gray were sacked from sky for joking amongst themselves off-air that female ref sian massey would/should not be reffing mens football.

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8 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Fair enough.

Then it contradicts itself. I understand the need, per se, for same sex toilets but not sure why they're a safe space to feel respected. They're where you piss and shit.

 

would you want your 11/12 year old daughter in the same toilet block as a group of 15/16 year old boys? Or thinking back to schhol, how would you feel as a shy 11 year old boy wanting to go for a piss and beeng greeted by half a dozen 16 year old girls...

It doesn't bother me in the slightest as an adult in all honesty, In fact very few things do but seems to me at least to be an unnecessary thing at a school and is likely to create far more intimidation/discomfort for 99% of the kids so that perhaps the odd one or two don't feel awkward about using/being made to use "the wrong toilet"

Edited by LakotaDakota
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I remember the good ol' days, before politcal correctness became a thing, When somebody said something outrageous, it was because they were tactless. However, what they said would be taken in, and judged on its merits.

I once called Luis Suarez a " flop monkey". At the time, I didnt know that calling somebody a monkey was apparently racist. When I was a kid, I called everybody a monkey. In my mind, I didnt care where he is from or what race he is, I referred to him as that because he was a joke of a human being that loved diving, and it sounded funny. Where PC is concerned, it seems that " broader context" is not a thing anymore.

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1 hour ago, dAVe80 said:

It's all part of the post Brexit, post Trump world we live in now.

"Freedom of speech mate, innit? You can't even put dog shit through your Pakistani neighbour's letterbox these days, without some bed wetting, cardigan wearing, Quarn munching, dike getting offended. World's gone mad, etc etc."

We had a bunch of Nazis marching through our town the other week. Proper Nazis too, not just Britain First / EDL types. Talking to a colleague about me going on a counter demo, and he couldn't get his head round why. He kept saying, I don't agree with them, but they've got the right to say what they want, and sighted "freedom of speech". I told, no they haven't. Freedom of speech in the UK, does not give you the right to insight racial or religious hatred. People seem to think that we they can say what they want now, and not be held accountable for it, because freedom of speech is a magic, get out of jail free card. That's not the case though. As I explained to him, if it were, I could walk up to my boss, call him a word removed, and then go, "Can't sack me, freedom of speech."  

Freedom of speech gives everyone the right to voice their opinion, and allow their voices to be heard. It however does not make them exempt from the consequences from the judgement of their words.

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In the old days doing your best to not cause offence was just called good manners or politeness.

It became political correctness when every utterance was the concern of institutions and ultimately the state and could cost a person their job; it has got to the stage where an individual is not only told what not to say but is now being told what they must say.

There is a high-profile case going at a Canadian university (University of Toronto) where a lecturer is being threatened with the loss of his job, and possibly jail, because he refuses to use the pronoun of choice which trans, self-declared non-binary gendered people insist on (there are at least a dozen options). The law says he must and he says he won't and is prepared to go to jail, if need be. 

This is the situation where political-correctness has got us, it has gone far beyond reason.

It is not those who complain, harass, and riot who are to blame, it is the media's obsession with combing social-media for examples to exploit which is to blame and then governments responding by enacting laws to quell the hysteria which has been pandered to.

Catering to those who love the self-righteous feeling of outrage, which social-media can be mined for, is now an industry in itself.

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5 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

The issue is, is when it permeates to the real world. Which is what it has done through Trump, Le Pen etc. The article in the OP (The Guardian, I know) does a good job of explaining this. 

People don't have to defend their views, just shout "political correctness has gone mad" and people lap it up. It feeds into the post-fact world we're sleepwalking into.

You've got this the wrong way around. Trump & Le Pen are making political mileage by mirroring & amplifying opinions that already exist in swathes of mainstream society, they are not the cause of it.

It's not that populist politicians are legitimizing base prejudices and opinions by rejecting 'PC', the people who already hold them will continue to do so regardless. I'd suggest the populists are showing a level of solidarity and empathy that wins them the support of people who (rightly or wrongly) feel excluded.

Those people don't feel the need to defend their views on demand because they don't care what you (in a generic sense) think, or fear the trauma of social judgement by people utterly remote from their lived experience.

They react positively when populist politicians mirror their broad prejudices back at them, cleverly laced with truths about the failure of the so called elites to ensure their economic well being. 'Yes Mr Rust Belt, your job has gone to Mexico so we can maximize share holder dividends'. If one wanted to actively foster alienation from machine politics within lower skilled sections of society that's a great way to start.  

These are the consequences of ruthless globalization, the ease of capital movement and access to cheap labour. If anything surprise is that it's taken so long to manifest in political populism.

I'm not remotely saying the populists have the answers, they've simply achieved first mover advantage in the race to win support from those who perceive themselves as globalizations losers.

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6 hours ago, LakotaDakota said:

People are offended/outraged by everything. It's so easy to do now, just click a button.....

Thousands of people have signed a petition for the new £5 to be withdrawn because they contain a trace amount of tallow and vegans do not like this.

Schools are now introducing mixed/unisex toilets for students over the age of 8 so trans & non-binary kids have a "safe space" where they can feel respected.

Oscars nominations (or other award shows) don't include a suitable mix of black/white/other/disabled/male/female/trans and you are in for a riot.

not a fan of uncontrolled immigration? Apparently this puts you on a par with hitler and you are an evil racist

Every single BBC panel show must have at least 1 woman on it since 2014

Companies including the BBC & police are allowed to recruit people only of colour/ethnicity/sexuality as apparently "affermative action" is ok

Look at things like the Rooney rule in the states that the football league have approved the adoption of. How does this help anyone? For every single managerial/senoir coashing/assistant role you must interview at least 1 person that is not white. Even if you have one target in mind to replace your current manager you have to interview at least 1 other person based soley on them being of different ethnicity, wasting their time completely. It is good that they want to do something to get a bit more variety in the mainly white dominated roles but enforced interviews for every single role isn't the way to go

Comedians are going to be a dying breed soon, you can not say anything anymore that even 1 person may be offended by without hundreds/thousands of people on twitter calling you a racist/bigot/homophobe etc etc

I'm not sure I've ever read anything I've disagreed with more.

The £5 doesn't need animal fat in it. People are signing a petition because, actually, they'd prefer it if didn't use animal products. There's actually only a tiny amount in every £5 note and you'd probably get more by shaking hands with someone, but it's still OK for people to disagree with it.

The school thing is sensationalism. If cubicles are fully enclosed then what's the problem? And how is this anything to do with being politically correct?

Minorities have the odds stacked against them. Positive discrimination is required to redress the balance in some situations.

I'm not sure if you've ever watched Jimmy Carr, Frankie Boyle or Jim Jefferies. But if you had you'd know that your final statement is absolute rubbish. They get away with some really horrible stuff in the name of comedy, because it's in context.

Eric Bristow can say what he said down the pub and would probably get a lot of his friends agreeing with him. He could turn into a comedian and say it in a satirical way and he'd be OK. Broadcasting it on Twitter as a reasoned opinion isn't going to end well. People will get offended. And people get offended because it's ill thought out. It's very easy to denigrate victims by oversimplifying their choices. And when that happens and victims get belittled, then the people voicing those opinions need to be told. Thing is, anyone with a bit of sense should know all of this. And if they don't, they shouldn't be a media representative for a broadcaster. Hence why he's out on his ear.

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36 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

 

There is a high-profile case going at a Canadian university (University of Toronto) where a lecturer is being threatened with the loss of his job, and possibly jail, because he refuses to use the pronoun of choice which trans, self-declared non-binary gendered people insist on (there are at least a dozen options). The law says he must and he says he won't and is prepared to go to jail, if need be. 

Got a source for this? I can find people criticising him, but not a single mention of him being threatened with the sack, nevermind imprisonment.

All the law that you're probably referring to, Bill C-16, aims to do is to protect transgender people from discrimination, they currently aren't protected in the same way that gay people are, for example. It's not a law enforcing you using people's preferred pronouns, nor is it even that likely that this would be covered, in fact, the section that the bill has added 'gender identity or expression" to is an existing law against hate speech and advocating genocide. I'm not a canadian lawyer, nor am I legally qualified in any other nation, however I feel it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that not using someone's preferred pronoun is going to be construed as either hate speech or advocating genocide. It's a law that already exists to protect several protected classes, that is simply being extended to protect the trans community. There's no mention of pronouns, and there's absolutely no chance that it's being used over such a frivolous matter.

It's a misunderstanding, that the lecturer in question has spread about to try to get some support for "PC going mad", that has little basis in fact.

 

Edited by Davkaus
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7 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Minorities have the odds stacked against them. Positive discrimination is required to redress the balance in some situations.

Can't agree with this.  How can true equality ever be achieved while we're still categorising people?  Discrimination is never positive.

Race/sex/religion/background should not be considered in any way.  Everybody should have the same chance from the get go.

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Just now, Wainy316 said:

Can't agree with this.  How can true equality ever be achieved while we're still categorising people?  Discrimination is never positive.

Race/sex/religion/background should not be considered in any way.  Everybody should have the same chance from the get go.

It's a difficult subject. But without positive discrimination, some people don't have the chance from the get go. Some measures have to be taken to stop people being marginalised. Otherwise some people never get a look-in, which is never fair. You have to combat intrinsic racism.

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I kind of feel like I'm in the middle when it comes to this. I do believe political correctness is an actual thing and often it can do more harm than good. Having said that, I also think many people have a definition that is far too broad. There's a difference between political correctness and calling someone out for being a prejudiced jerk, for example.

Edited by Mantis
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