The Tradesman's Entrance

[Guest av1]

1 minute ago, AVFC_Hitz said:

I could get you some cheaper foreigners. 

Not sure the missues would be to keen 

[lapal_fan]

7 minutes ago, av1 said:

The whole thing is a sham, and as i say it's just a money making exercise.

I know a couple of electricians, including and college lecturer who flat refuse to take out membership with any of these bodies. 

 

His reasoning is that the electricty at work regulations 1989 (our bible) state that anyone carrying out electrical work needs to be competent to do so. 

His argument is that he has been a practising electrician for 40yrs, he is qualified to degree level, has his own business and teaches the next generation of electricians in his role as a college lecturer. 

He argues that he will happily go to court and watch some plonker from the local authority try to convince the court that he isn't competent to fit a new light fitting in someones house. 

 

I feel ya.

It similar to any accreditation body really.  I am a registered Energy Assessor.  I've surveyed most of the city blocks in Birmingham, loads of huge buildings in London, including ones which power their buildings using Hydrogen fuel cells and countless other industrial/commercial/council buildings - all manner of them.

But unless I pay that fee, I'm not classed as competent enough to survey a building. 

I haven't been an energy assessor for about 4 years now, but I could do it standing my my head.  But why would I if I have to pay a silly annual subscription and then pay for lodgement fees to put the survey on a register?  

It's a bit backwards because everyone wants to see improved energy efficiency in all buildings to save money and become more environmentally friendly, but the hoops they make you jump through to get it make it very hard to be arsed with. 

[Guest av1]

17 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I feel ya.

It similar to any accreditation body really.  I am a registered Energy Assessor.  I've surveyed most of the city blocks in Birmingham, loads of huge buildings in London, including ones which power their buildings using Hydrogen fuel cells and countless other industrial/commercial/council buildings - all manner of them.

But unless I pay that fee, I'm not classed as competent enough to survey a building. 

I haven't been an energy assessor for about 4 years now, but I could do it standing my my head.  But why would I if I have to pay a silly annual subscription and then pay for lodgement fees to put the survey on a register?  

It's a bit backwards because everyone wants to see improved energy efficiency in all buildings to save money and become more environmentally friendly, but the hoops they make you jump through to get it make it very hard to be arsed with. 

It's ridiculous isn't. It's not about competency, as both of is were deemed competent while we are paying, but aren't now that we're not?

There are so many cowboys out there, certainly in my trade (i guess it's the same with yours), that there needs to be a way to root them out. As i said in my post, the idea is good it's just been poorly executed. But it all just seems like a money making exercise rather than actually weeding out poor tradesman. 

The trade is expensive enough as it is, the current wiring regulation have yet again just been updated which will mean sparkies forking out about £300 on books, £300/£400 on the update course, and then we're expected to spend £500 a year on a poxy membership just so we can work in somones house. 

The issue with all that is that the cost ultimately gets passed onto the customer, so the cowboys out there can charge 30/40% cheaper.

So far from weeding out the poor tradesman, they are effectively pushing more and more work their way. 

[lapal_fan]

2 minutes ago, av1 said:

It's ridiculous isn't. It's not about competency, as both of is were deemed competent while we are paying, but aren't now that we're not?

There are so many cowboys out there, certainly in my trade (i guess it's the same with yours), that there needs to be a way to root them out. As i said in my post, the idea is good it's just been poorly executed. But it all just seems like a money making exercise rather than actually weeding out poor tradesman. 

The trade is expensive enough as it is, the current wiring regulation have yet again just been updated which will mean sparkies forking out about £300 on books, £300/£400 on the update course, and then we're expected to spend £500 a year on a poxy membership just so we can work in somones house. 

The issue with all that is that the cost ultimately gets passed onto the customer, so the cowboys out there can charge 30/40% cheaper.

So far from weeding out the poor tradesman, they are effectively pushing more and more work their way. 

Bingo! 

To be honest, that's why we went with the guy who did our work on our first house. 

He charged us £500 for a complete re-wire of the house, plus adding in sockets where we wanted them and an outside light.  Our next cheapest quote was about £1200. 

We were in our early 20s, earning about 20k each, just put down 10k of our savings for a deposit, was paying £600 a month for the mortgage and had 2 cars + we were introduced to bills like council tax, shopping, insurances etc etc. 

That £700 difference was a huge sum of money (proportionally speaking) at the time - so we took a chance on a bloke who said "yea I'll do it".  I think the indemnity policy we took out as we sold the house was about £50, so we were still quids in. 

It's not right really.  But the honest, qualified sparky has to make his money somewhere! 

 

[villa4europe]

wait and see if the CDM regs actually ever trickle down to house refurbs and see what that does to the industry, at the moment i think they know its practically unenforceable 

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

wait and see if the CDM regs actually ever trickle down to house refurbs and see what that does to the industry, at the moment i think they know its practically unenforceable 

CDM 2015? 

I have folders of those at my house (I was gonna get into H&S as a career, but then I got a good job the other day, so I'm going to see how that pans out first).

I haven't read too much of them, but what I have all seemed quite sensible?  Although I am aware of how much resistance to H&S there is in industry because of how much time it can take up. 

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, av1 said:

This is the scary bit. I was told that there are 2 tariffs. 

1) If i can prove I'm a fully qualified Electrician (which i can) the job can be registered for £74 plus vat.

2) For non qualified DIY enthusiasts, the job can be registered for £450 plus vat. 

 

Just let that sink in. Any plonker can rewire a house and officially register the job with building control provided they pay a (admittedly large) fee.

Is this the fee that the local council charge for third party certification?

 

57 minutes ago, av1 said:

The whole thing is a sham, and as i say it's just a money making exercise.

I know a couple of electricians, including and college lecturer who flat refuse to take out membership with any of these bodies. 

 

His reasoning is that the electricty at work regulations 1989 (our bible) state that anyone carrying out electrical work needs to be competent to do so. 

His argument is that he has been a practising electrician for 40yrs, he is qualified to degree level, has his own business and teaches the next generation of electricians in his role as a college lecturer. 

He argues that he will happily go to court and watch some plonker from the local authority try to convince the court that he isn't competent to fit a new light fitting in someones house, simply because he refuses to spend £500 on membership. 

 

So he has to get someone else to certify any notifiable jobs he does?

[Stevo985]

53 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I feel ya.

It similar to any accreditation body really.  I am a registered Energy Assessor.  I've surveyed most of the city blocks in Birmingham, loads of huge buildings in London, including ones which power their buildings using Hydrogen fuel cells and countless other industrial/commercial/council buildings - all manner of them.

But unless I pay that fee, I'm not classed as competent enough to survey a building. 

I haven't been an energy assessor for about 4 years now, but I could do it standing my my head.  But why would I if I have to pay a silly annual subscription and then pay for lodgement fees to put the survey on a register?  

It's a bit backwards because everyone wants to see improved energy efficiency in all buildings to save money and become more environmentally friendly, but the hoops they make you jump through to get it make it very hard to be arsed with. 

I was gonna say the same. And I'm not even talking about this kind of trade.

I'm a Chartered Management Accountant (CIMA).
Ok I had to pass some exams 6 years ago to get that status, but I can barely remember anything from them.

But because I pay that fee every month I get to say I'm a chartered accountant.
There are plenty of people who know shit loads more about finance and accounts than I do who have never done CIMA, but because I pay the £300 a year to put the letters after my name, I'm the accountant.

Obviously that's less serious than stuff like wiring a house, because that's people's safety at risk. But the principle is the same

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, av1 said:

It's not about competency, as both of is were deemed competent while we are paying, but aren't now that we're not?

Can you join the registered body without passing the appropriate electrician's exams? Can you stay in that body if you don't keep up with changes in the regulations (your other comment about forking out for books and so on suggests not)?

Yes, belonging to that professional body doesn't necessarily mean that incompetent work can't be done by one of its members (same as for Gas Safe members) but it does mean that its members have had to obtain a certain level of proficiency in order to acquire membership, doesn't it?

[Guest av1]

7 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Is this the fee that the local council charge for third party certification?

 

No. They don't even certify the work, the person carrying out the work has to provide the certificate, how that actually works in the case of the DIY enthusiast god only knows. 

The fee is to simply register the work in order to satisfy P Part legislation. The work itself is never checked by a 3rd party. 

10 minutes ago, snowychap said:

 

So he has to get someone else to certify any notifiable jobs he does?

To comply, yes, he would have to that, but as i said he refuses.

When he does a job he tests it and provides a certificate, he simply doesn't notify the job to building control. 

If he was taken to court it would be under the umbrella of the Electricity at work regulations 1989. And far from being a whipping tool he argues that would form his defence. 

Again it state, that anyone carrying out electrical work needs to be competent to do so. 

He argues no one in their right mind could possibly doubt his competence given his experience and education. 

[villa4europe]

14 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

CDM 2015? 

I have folders of those at my house (I was gonna get into H&S as a career, but then I got a good job the other day, so I'm going to see how that pans out first).

I haven't read too much of them, but what I have all seemed quite sensible?  Although I am aware of how much resistance to H&S there is in industry because of how much time it can take up. 

yep

i think there's definitely still a reluctance, a knowledge gap and a lack of understanding as to what works are now deemed to be included under the regs, it is all fairly simple and common sense but it does have an element of time attached to it and requires planning / organisation that some smaller contractors probably dont have

[lapal_fan]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I was gonna say the same. And I'm not even talking about this kind of trade.

I'm a Chartered Management Accountant (CIMA).
Ok I had to pass some exams 6 years ago to get that status, but I can barely remember anything from them.

But because I pay that fee every month I get to say I'm a chartered accountant.
There are plenty of people who know shit loads more about finance and accounts than I do who have never done CIMA, but because I pay the £300 a year to put the letters after my name, I'm the accountant.

Obviously that's less serious than stuff like wiring a house, because that's people's safety at risk. But the principle is the same

You'll have to remind me, but I used to speak to an accountant colleague at work (he was nearly as boring as you Stevo  ) and he said there were 3 routes into accountancy, and there was a degree of snobbery about them. 

Which one is classed as best? 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, av1 said:

No. They don't even certify the work, the person carrying out the work has to provide the certificate, how that actually works in the case of the DIY enthusiast god only knows. 

The fee is to simply register the work in order to satisfy P Part legislation. The work itself is never checked by a 3rd party.

There are specific works that are notifiable, aren't there?

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, av1 said:

To comply, yes, he would have to that, but as i said he refuses.

When he does a job he tests it and provides a certificate, he simply doesn't notify the job to building control.

So whenever he does notifiable work he doesn't notify anyone about it?

[lapal_fan]

Just now, villa4europe said:

yep

i think there's definitely still a reluctance, a knowledge gap and a lack of understanding as to what works are now deemed to be included under the regs, it is all fairly simple and common sense but it does have an element of time attached to it and requires planning / organisation that some smaller contractors probably dont have

And money, which gets passed onto mr client. 

You can see where the resistance comes in, and it all comes down to money. 

[Guest av1]

5 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Can you join the registered body without passing the appropriate electrician's exams? Can you stay in that body if you don't keep up with changes in the regulations (your other comment about forking out for books and so on suggests not)?

 

No you would need the appropriate qualifications to register. Then they access your qualifacations, access your work with a half day site visit, pay your £500 and your done. 

 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, av1 said:

No you would need the appropriate qualifications to register. Then they access your qualifacations, access your work with a half day site visit, pay your £500 and your done. 

 

Indeed. So membership of that body provides at least some reassurance that the person carrying the work out ought to be prefessionally competent enough to do the work?

[Guest av1]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

There are specific works that are notifiable, aren't there?

Yes. A addition or alteration to a circuit (ie adding an extra socket) just requires a minor works certificate and is not notifiable.

Any thing that requires a full installation certificate, ie a new circuit back to an existing board, or indeed a new board, is. 

[snowychap]

Just now, av1 said:

Yes. A addition or alteration to a circuit (ie adding an extra socket) just requires a minor works certificate and is not notifiable.

Any thing that requires a full installation certificate, ie a new circuit back to an existing board, or indeed a new board, is. 

And your friend never does this?

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

You'll have to remind me, but I used to speak to an accountant colleague at work (he was nearly as boring as you Stevo  ) and he said there were 3 routes into accountancy, and there was a degree of snobbery about them. 

Which one is classed as best? 

Primarily, in this country, it's ACA, ACCA and CIMA

I imagine it would be ranked in that order in terms of "best". 

But the first two are financial accounting qualifications (actual auditing and preparing accounts etc) whereas CIMA is management accounting. So they're not really comparable in that way.
And there's not much between the first two. From memory when I applied to Deloitte and KPMG, Deloitte were putting graduates through ACA and KPMG was ACCA.