The Villa Finance Thread

[Stevo985]

Just now, TheStagMan said:

Why not? If it is a 12 month rolling contract, notice can be served at any point and he can be expected to work out his contract.

 

Can it? How do you know that?

Genuine questions. 

[ender4]

2 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Why not? If it is a 12 month rolling contract, notice can be served at any point and he can be expected to work out his contract.

 

Though in reality, you wouldn't want someone in that sort of position to work their notice period, so they would just go on garden leave.

[TheStagMan]

39 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Though in reality, you wouldn't want someone in that sort of position to work their notice period, so they would just go on garden leave.

Are you saying that they might not put in 100% effort, might make strange (or deliberate) bad choices, bad mouth their colleagues or staff, attack/insult the customers and basically do a sh*t job?

 

Hmmm, I think we may have figured out what is going on.....  

 

In all seriousness though, depends on the situation. If people are professional then they can work their notice period. He could have been offered a loyalty bonus at the end of it, or a promotion pay-off. He is supposedly a professionally proud man, so one would think he would value his reputation in these circumstances.

Edited September 3, 2018 by TheStagMan

[TheStagMan]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Can it? How do you know that?

Genuine questions. 

Am not going to go into details, but have done similar before (not in football obviously) but assuming he has a "normal" type of contract (i.e. not one that says something like, you can never sack me and if you want me out it will cost you 10 million quid ha ha ha ha, thanks), then serving notice with the requisite 12 months turns it (effectively) into a 12 month fixed term contract. Normally you would add a loyalty bonus or achievement payment to the person as an incentive. 

Its not beyond the realms of possibility to do this, although to our owners the money it would potentially save if he is sacked (a couple of months salary) may not be worth the effort.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, TheStagMan said:

Am not going to go into details, but have done similar before (not in football obviously) but assuming he has a "normal" type of contract (i.e. not one that says something like, you can never sack me and if you want me out it will cost you 10 million quid ha ha ha ha, thanks), then serving notice with the requisite 12 months turns it (effectively) into a 12 month fixed term contract. Normally you would add a loyalty bonus or achievement payment to the person as an incentive. 

Its not beyond the realms of possibility to do this, although to our owners the money it would potentially save if he is sacked (a couple of months salary) may not be worth the effort.

Ok, so you're assuming.

I was too. Just checking that we both don't know anything  

[TheStagMan]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Ok, so you're assuming.

I was too. Just checking that we both don't know anything  

Yes, I am assuming, based on contracts I have worked with/on in the past. But no, you are absolutely right that I have not seen Steve Bruce's contract so cannot say exactly what is in it, other than to talk in general terms about things I have seen/do know, and hypothesize about what I would look at doing if I were in the position of our new owners.....

I hope that helps to clarify the situation. 

[villabromsgrove]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

If it's a 12 month rolling contract, then it can never expire.

Unless he signed a new one with different clauses.

Sawiris and Edens were entitled to inform Bruce that the position of Manager would be ceasing in twelve months, and will be replaced by a position of Head Coach, which would have a two year fixed term attached to it, and not a 12 month rolling contract. He would be able to apply for the new position.

Notice would have been legally served. 

[rodders0223]

55 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

Sawiris and Edens were entitled to inform Bruce that the position of Manager would be ceasing in twelve months, and will be replaced by a position of Head Coach, which would have a two year fixed term attached to it, and not a 12 month rolling contract. He would be able to apply for the new position.

Notice would have been legally served. 

That would be fun, all the (hopefully) potential bright forward thinking head coaches applying for the position, detailing their plans, aspirations and intentions in slick presentations. Then Steve's turn

 

[briny_ear]

There’s a whole lot of bollocks being talked about Steve Bruce’s contract today!

I think some people have a rather rosy-eyed view of where the balance of power lies between clubs and managers on contractual issues.

I also think there is a public duty to give details of the organisations where you realistically might be sacked but expected to work out  a year’s notice, just so anyone contemplating a job offer from them would know to avoid them like the plague.

EDIT

Also just to note that this valiant attempt to start a thread about Villa finances has ended up like every other thread, talking about, guess what?....

Yeh, Steve Bruce!

#TheGreatVillatalkObsession.

Edited September 3, 2018 by briny_ear

[villabromsgrove]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

There’s a whole lot of bollocks being talked about Steve Bruce’s contract today!

I think some people have a rather rosy-eyed view of where the balance of power lies between clubs and managers on contractual issues.

I also think there is a public duty to give details of the organisations where you realistically might be sacked but expected to work out  a year’s notice, just so anyone contemplating a job offer from them would know to avoid them like the plague.

EDIT

Also just to note that this valiant attempt to start a thread about Villa finances has ended up like every other thread, talking about, guess what?....

Yeh, Steve Bruce!

#TheGreatVillatalkObsession.

As usual you've twisted what's been said to support your own 'anti anyone who dares to criticise Bruce' stance!

Any company can make a position redundant. A lot of Football clubs have done away with managers and have head coaches whose responsibility begins and ends on the pitch.

Sawiris and Edens can withdraw Bruce's position at any time as long as they are prepared to compensate him as per his contract.

The idea that giving notice on a rolling contract is tantamount to sacking and a despicable act is frankly laughable. That's what rolling contracts are designed for. Three month, six month and twelve month rolling contracts are common and they are being set up and ended in their thousands nation wide. You'll need a big piece of paper and a thick skin if you intend to name and shame companies who abide by a fair legally contractual practice that suits both the employer and the employee.

[briny_ear]

51 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

As usual you've twisted what's been said to support (a) your own 'anti anyone who dares to criticise Bruce' stance!

Any company can make a position redundant.(b) A lot of Football clubs have done away with managers and have head coaches whose responsibility begins and ends on the pitch.

Sawiris and Edens can withdraw Bruce's position at any time as long as they are prepared to compensate him as per his contract.

The idea that giving notice on a rolling contract is tantamount to sacking and a despicable act is frankly laughable. That's what rolling contracts are designed for. Three month, six month and twelve month rolling contracts are common and they are being set up and ended in their thousands nation wide. You'll need a big piece of paper and a thick skin if you intend to name and shame companies who abide by a fair legally contractual practice that suits both the employer and the employee.

I can't be arsed to get into a long and wholly speculative argument about Steve Bruce’s contract. My intervention in this thread began with a claim by another poster that Bruce’s contract had been changed from 12-month rolling to 1 month rolling. This was followed by speculation that he had been given12 months’ notice on his current contract and would be invited to apply for a new post of head coach along with others in a year’s time. There is no evidence that either of these is the case. Until some evidence emerges, it is pointless to discuss the issue.

Just to pick up on two factual points in your post: (a) your depiction of my attitude towards Steve Bruce is a travesty. I always try to call people out when they are talking nonsense about Steve Bruce (see above) and   when they ruin other threads by twisting them to be about the manager whatever the supposed topic (again, see above). But otherwise I have always made clear that if we could find a better manager than Bruce and do it in an orderly  fashion (unlike most of our managerial appointments over the past 10 years) then we certainly should do that. I don’t think he’s so bad that he warrants the hysterical “SACK HIM NOW!” reactions he gets so often on here and I did think around July when the club was falling apart that keeping him as manager would provide some welcome stability. However, all that has changed now and many more performances like Saturday’s shambles will undoubtedly speed his departure, which will be good if the replacement is done sensibly.

(b) Can you name any senior clubs - let’s say Premier league and Championship - who have done what was discussed earlier - put their existing manager on12 months’ notice and told him to reapply for a different post? If so, I will accept I was wrong to criticise that argument but we do need some evidence.

Now then, what was this thread meant to be about again? 

Edited September 3, 2018 by briny_ear

[peterms]

Garden leave?

A 12 month rolling contract?

We need someone to operate the roller over the turf before matches.

Hmmmm.  (Strokes beard, thoughtfully).