Steve Bruce

[vreitti]

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villas-conor-hourihane-hat-13504937

Guess we can drop the debate whether we'd have had the same result with Gabby or Hogan up top.

“He was the main reason I had so much joy.” CH

Edited August 21, 2017 by vreitti

[rubberman]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

I want him gone until we reach the 2pts a game average. At that point I'll be happy to see how long he can maintain it. 

I doubt he will achieve it though. 

As long as he continues at 3 points per game, I'll be happy.

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, tomav84 said:

This post is not meant as a dig to anyone, but just out of interest...what would it take for those firmly with two feet in the 'Bruce out' camp to switch to 'Bruce in'? Whilst i accept that one performance shouldn't drastically change an opinion, for better or worse, lets say that we go to Bristol and turn them over comprehensively, and follow it up with some impressive performances and results, how many would it take for opinions to change?

I'm sure I've seen posts saying they would still want him out if he took us up as he isn't the right man to keep us there, which to me sounds odd...i think if you have been promoted, you deserve the right to play/manage in your new division (see Bournemouth, who had much the same team out when they played us in their first game).

FWIW, I was leaning towards 'out' after the Cardiff game but back on the fence now after Norwich...

Interesting question.  I was calling for Bruce out last February.  But when it was clear that would not happen, I was willing to give him the pre-season and the window and see, and I quit posting "Bruce out."  It was clearly not going to happen in that time frame and I'm too much a pragmatist to fight the inevitable.

Until Norwich, he had completely failed.  And I was (still am) a firm believer he should go.

I have 2 big problems with Bruce.  They are both rooted in a preference he appears to have, for "safe" appearing or conservative options.  1) Either he did not realize or did not clearly address the toxic culture at the club for far too long, if ever.  He appeared to think it best to just work through it rather than address it as the problem.  2) As a game manager he's consistently conservative, not much of a risk taker, (he starts Davis when forced to, for recent example).  This pattern (temperament?) means he is too slow to react to situations on the field.  Hutton was clearly getting used by Norwich LONG before we made a change to adapt.  Both of those come in the absolute best performance we've had in eons.  His temperament toward an overly conservative approach is still evident, even when the overall performance  and certainly the result, were fantastic.   

I fully expect to see choices I think are far too conservative (safe) even in the good results.  That's been my view of Bruce for years, even before his appointment to Villa.  At the time people on here even claimed he was the "safe" bet.  I will always think that he should be gone after we are promoted because I just don't think he's the strong, proactive, visionary leader needed to make great gains.  Leopards rarely change spots.  Even many who have supported Bruce have conceded that they think he is the man to get us up but NOT to push on once we are back in the premiership.  Often, his supporters have referred to putting the club in "safe" hands.  I will likely always think he was a bad appointment, because even if he gets us to guaranteed promotion I will think like I do now.....  He has the player talent, and club support, but not the right personal qualities to do take us to where we want to be.

In the meantime, I will be cheering and supporting Villa whether the person on the sidelines is Bruce, Pee Wee Herman, Sir Alex, or a penguin in fancy dress.  If the team starts putting in reasonable performances and most importantly, results match after match after match, I will stop posting "Bruce out" (as I did in the tail of last season). Not because my view of him has changed but because it's clearly not the right time due to circumstances.  If the team is consistently winning, it would be foolish timing to remove him.  But I will always think he did it the long, hard way, and other ways of getting us there would have been much more effective.  

So, maybe the short answer is that I will always be "Bruce out" but my passion for Villa to win and my pragmatism about timing are both stronger, so I will not always be "Bruce out NOW."

But, Bruce out NOW.  If we perform well and win the next 2 league matches, I will remain Bruce out, but not Bruce out NOW. 

[Jareth]

Just now, srsmithusa said:

But, Bruce out NOW.  If we perform well and win the next 2 league matches, I will remain Bruce out, but not Bruce out NOW. 

#BruceOutInAbit

[lapal_fan]

I was Bruce in, then Bruce out, then In, Out, In, Out but all I do is shout,

I think he's Okey dokey and I've come around,

And that's what it's all about. 

[Rodders]

As an 'outer', I would need to see the good performances replicated over a number of weeks, featuring the ability to win successive matches, especially away from home. If We see 80% norwich type performances over the next  few months, then I will acknowledge he has very, very belatedly found an effective formula - but he will need to be alert to teams sussing out our hypothetical strengths and have plan's b and c waiting. I was happy with saturday's win and he get's his share of the credit for it, but as with any new dawn, we've been here before. I recall a particularly promising match v Preston I think it was last season before it went to pot. 

I would be delighted to see us improve and maintain that. It is infinitely preferable to more chopping and changing, but I do remain skeptical. If he were to get us up then I would support him staying on to see how he fares in the Premiership again, though I do not believe he is a long term solution - but those are all hypotheticals that are a long way away. So far we've 1.5 decent performances away sandwiching some utter dross away from home. 

Let's see.

[ender4]

2 hours ago, tomav84 said:

This post is not meant as a dig to anyone, but just out of interest...what would it take for those firmly with two feet in the 'Bruce out' camp to switch to 'Bruce in'? Whilst i accept that one performance shouldn't drastically change an opinion, for better or worse, lets say that we go to Bristol and turn them over comprehensively, and follow it up with some impressive performances and results, how many would it take for opinions to change?

 

i was firmly in the "keep Bruce" until a couple of games ago. 
After the Reading game, i reluctantly switched to the "Bruce Out" camp

For me to switch back to the "keep Bruce" camp, i expect him to be in the top 2 and keep us in the top 2 until the end of the season.

That target hasn't changed for me since the end of last season, anything lower than second will have been a complete failure.   

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 hours ago, rubberman said:

As long as he continues at 3 points per game, I'll be happy.

To be fair we need that for the next few games just to be on target and catch up.

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, vreitti said:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villas-conor-hourihane-hat-13504937

Guess we can drop the debate whether we'd have had the same result with Gabby or Hogan up top.

“He was the main reason I had so much joy.” CH

There was no debate in my opinion. Proof was in the last 6 months! 

[TheStagMan]

6 hours ago, tomav84 said:

This post is not meant as a dig to anyone, but just out of interest...what would it take for those firmly with two feet in the 'Bruce out' camp to switch to 'Bruce in'? Whilst i accept that one performance shouldn't drastically change an opinion, for better or worse, lets say that we go to Bristol and turn them over comprehensively, and follow it up with some impressive performances and results, how many would it take for opinions to change?

I'm sure I've seen posts saying they would still want him out if he took us up as he isn't the right man to keep us there, which to me sounds odd...i think if you have been promoted, you deserve the right to play/manage in your new division (see Bournemouth, who had much the same team out when they played us in their first game).

FWIW, I was leaning towards 'out' after the Cardiff game but back on the fence now after Norwich...

So I am definitely in the out camp. Bruce for me is not adventurous enough for a club like Villa and is a lower end of the premier league slogger. There is a reason he has 4 promotions - he has ended up in the Championship A LOT, premier league clubs have not exactly fallen over themselves to hire him - that should say a lot. He also has two relegations from the prem lets not forget. He is good at getting the best out of a skillfully poor but hardworking team. He has never shown flair in his teams and has never managed at the top end of the prem. He also apparently stays awake all night worrying about losing. Not something that instills confidence is it!

He has not, over 40+ games consistently demonstrated a game plan, a playing style, a first choice team or a plan B. He has not shown an ability to change a game when it is going against us or even try until it is too late.

What I want to see from Bruce, if he is to stay, a period of 10+ wins where it looks like we deserved to win where we looked convincing and didn't only play for 1 half of the game. Not like the winning run last season where the wins were not convincing and there was a fair degree of luck, and you just felt that we could not sustain it - and we didn't. Norwich was a good start. 10 more performances like that and I will have been brought onside. I would even accept a couple of draws in some circumstances (i.e. not if we throw away a 3-0 lead and draw 3-3) .

Each win or decent performance that he gets (like Norwich) buys him until the next game in my eyes. 

[foreveryoung]

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

There was no debate in my opinion. Proof was in the last 6 months! 

This to me this is two fingers up to Bruce from Conor. It feels as though the players have been wanting a change, but to no prevail. When the change was finally made Saturday the players not only played better they looked like they enjoyed it.

[macandally]

Bruce will not change my mind, Saturday just showed the players are capable if the right manager is brought in.  Bruce is not it!

[villan_007]

10 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

So I am definitely in the out camp. Bruce for me is not adventurous enough for a club like Villa and is a lower end of the premier league slogger. There is a reason he has 4 promotions - he has ended up in the Championship A LOT, premier league clubs have not exactly fallen over themselves to hire him - that should say a lot. He also has two relegations from the prem lets not forget. He is good at getting the best out of a skillfully poor but hardworking team. He has never shown flair in his teams and has never managed at the top end of the prem. He also apparently stays awake all night worrying about losing. Not something that instills confidence is it!

He has not, over 40+ games consistently demonstrated a game plan, a playing style, a first choice team or a plan B. He has not shown an ability to change a game when it is going against us or even try until it is too late.

What I want to see from Bruce, if he is to stay, a period of 10+ wins where it looks like we deserved to win where we looked convincing and didn't only play for 1 half of the game. Not like the winning run last season where the wins were not convincing and there was a fair degree of luck, and you just felt that we could not sustain it - and we didn't. Norwich was a good start. 10 more performances like that and I will have been brought onside. I would even accept a couple of draws in some circumstances (i.e. not if we throw away a 3-0 lead and draw 3-3) .

Each win or decent performance that he gets (like Norwich) buys him until the next game in my eyes. 

Apart from the bolded part I agree with you completely. It's where I'm at.

But the bolded part has always bothered me about the Bruce out camp. Whilst we are where we are we're never going to get a top end of the prem manager. We're shopping in the lower end prem league slogger bin, or talented foreign manager with no experience bin. We are in the championship and any thoughts about the premier league should be shelved until we're there. If Bruce gets us up I think he knows full well he'll get a golden handshake and we begin the next phase. 4 promotions from the league we're in shouldn't be sniffed at. Any of Bruce's premier league time means nothing to the here and now of where we're at.

I want Bruce to get us OUT. I don't care how he performed in the league above. It's not important.

However if we get rid. I don't think the next guy will have enough time to get us up. Which leaves us looking for a guy who could potentially manage in the prem and get us promoted which if we're honest is going to take two seasons minimum.

 

 

[villabromsgrove]

8 hours ago, macandally said:

Bruce will not change my mind, Saturday just showed the players are capable if the right manager is brought in.  Bruce is not it!

This post is short and sharp and to the point, and sums up my feelings.

[TheStagMan]

6 hours ago, villan_007 said:

Apart from the bolded part I agree with you completely. It's where I'm at.

But the bolded part has always bothered me about the Bruce out camp. Whilst we are where we are we're never going to get a top end of the prem manager. We're shopping in the lower end prem league slogger bin, or talented foreign manager with no experience bin. We are in the championship and any thoughts about the premier league should be shelved until we're there. If Bruce gets us up I think he knows full well he'll get a golden handshake and we begin the next phase. 4 promotions from the league we're in shouldn't be sniffed at. Any of Bruce's premier league time means nothing to the here and now of where we're at.

I want Bruce to get us OUT. I don't care how he performed in the league above. It's not important.

However if we get rid. I don't think the next guy will have enough time to get us up. Which leaves us looking for a guy who could potentially manage in the prem and get us promoted which if we're honest is going to take two seasons minimum.

And those are fair points BUT, that was more in response to the bolded bit below. Sorry - should have made it clearer.

 

 

This post is not meant as a dig to anyone, but just out of interest...what would it take for those firmly with two feet in the 'Bruce out' camp to switch to 'Bruce in'? Whilst i accept that one performance shouldn't drastically change an opinion, for better or worse, lets say that we go to Bristol and turn them over comprehensively, and follow it up with some impressive performances and results, how many would it take for opinions to change?

I'm sure I've seen posts saying they would still want him out if he took us up as he isn't the right man to keep us there, which to me sounds odd...i think if you have been promoted, you deserve the right to play/manage in your new division (see Bournemouth, who had much the same team out when they played us in their first game).

FWIW, I was leaning towards 'out' after the Cardiff game but back on the fence now after Norwich...

[bobzy]

23 hours ago, Bunnski said:

I'm not saying that it was all down to Davis or that it was pure luck but all I'm saying is we didn't control the game and we nearly threw it away by letting Norwich back into it twice, their was a goal line scramble and a header from a corner, either of those could of went in and made it 3-3. Hopefully Bruce will start setting us up to score goals as well as keep it tight at the back, then he can start having a go at the fans who have being rightly pissed off at him for the shite hes served up.

We hit the bar twice, missed 2 (3?) one-on-ones, their keeper made a great save from Davis' header and Hourihane placed a pretty straight forward shot just wide of the post early on too.  If you're going to be critical about Norwich potentially being let in, I think you need to also acknowledge that we should have scored plenty more, too.

If that final score was 8-3, it wouldn't have been unfair given the chances we created.

[Kiwivillan]

Only thing can save Bruce is take the shackles off, play players in their proper positions i.e. Hourihane, and drop duds like Gabby and Hutton

[villabromsgrove]

5 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Only thing can save Bruce is take the shackles off, play players in their proper positions i.e. Hourihane, and drop duds like Gabby and Hutton

Another post that I agree with totally. The question is can Bruce do it? More to the point, would he keep doing it when all his more experienced first choice players are available?

[Bunnski]

28 minutes ago, bobzy said:

We hit the bar twice, missed 2 (3?) one-on-ones, their keeper made a great save from Davis' header and Hourihane placed a pretty straight forward shot just wide of the post early on too.  If you're going to be critical about Norwich potentially being let in, I think you need to also acknowledge that we should have scored plenty more, too.

If that final score was 8-3, it wouldn't have been unfair given the chances we created.

Ye we had chances but we also let Norwich back into the game and need to control games better, twice we let a 2 goal lead slip.

[vreitti]

2 hours ago, villabromsgrove said:

Another post that I agree with totally. The question is can Bruce do it? More to the point, would he keep doing it when all his more experienced first choice players are available?

You should seldom change a winning lineup/formation. Especially not in our situation, where Bruce hasn't managed to produce anything close to last weeks performance before, in his 40+ games in charge.