Steve Bruce

[TRO]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

I'm not calling for his head, not even remotely close for a whole host of reasons. But I don't think a great deal at all of the job he is doing which is a huge shame because I've always though he was a decent manager and he is a genuily nice bloke. I really wanted this to work and not just because we needed it too.

I defended him last season, at quite some length. 

But what I saw in pre-season worried me, his comments which I still consider excuses added to that then we have Saturday and now the comments re Samba.

It is almost impossible not to see him as yesterday's man, his football certainly belongs in another decade.

He may well turn it around yet, I hope he does and I'm happy for him to have more time to do so but I have little hope that he will.

if the players aren't pressing that is down to Bruce and his coaches, if they aren't moving off the ball likewise. 

For all he wants to raise the issue of FFP he has signed a lot of players, he has had a decent number of games and he just had a preseason. If they still aren't doing as instructed then something is amiss.

I think we've the players to do much better than we did on Saturday, in part thanks to Bruce, the clock is very much ticking for him to get it out of them.

Suggesting we need to work on stuffing the ball up to Samba is just desperate.

I can find it easy to endorse all of that.

and to add,It does not fill me with confidence, I have to say to be talking about Samba in this light, flirting  with a favourites for promotion tag around our necks.

I am genuinely not trying to defend him at every juncture....but I can see why he did it.....it did look desperate, because we was desperate and we shouldn't be.

I was at the game on Saturday.....there were players literally walking when they Hull was running ( he has to deal with that robustly IMO) If they don't want to compete ( provided they are not carrying a knock and if they are they should be off) they can swing their hook.

I am not opposed to Steve Bruce getting a bit in the neck from the fans, not always sure its for the right reasons.

[DaveAV1]

24 minutes ago, NottingVilla said:

BRUCE WAS A GOOD MANAGER IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE KENNY JACKETTS WERE REPLACED BY THE NUNO SANTO'S.

Absolutely spot on. We need to look to the future not the past. 

[Davkaus]

He won promotion less than 18 months ago 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

He said exactly that. lol

And also that it's something to consider for the future

its funny this old game of football... we all see it different.

I have to admit, I said exactly the same watching the game......"He should have come on earlier"......so should Green and Onomah.

I did not want Chris Samba playing centre forward full stop ....peg in the ground.....and disappointed it will be a plan for the future.

The fact that we was conceding ground at a rapid rate and was liable to concede again.....I think it was all he could do and to some degree is started to work we gained ground as unsightly as it was.

my personal argument is ....We should have a specialist player on the books to do that job and we haven't, whether that has something to do with Kodjia, I don't know.

Edited August 7, 2017 by TRO

[DaveAV1]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

How many great managers like cloughie make success look simple, then fall flat on their arse at Leeds...

 Cloughie lost out to player power, he didn't have time to fail. Our Brucie is being given plenty of rope to hang himself, and some of his decisions on Saturday did nothing to prevent the hangman from forming the noose. I've said I'll try to stay supportive for the first few games, and will always be during a game. But he doesn't make it easy to say much in his favour on here.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

 Cloughie lost out to player power, he didn't have time to fail. Our Brucie is being given plenty of rope to hang himself, and some of his decisions on Saturday did nothing to prevent the hangman from forming the noose. I've said I'll try to stay supportive for the first few games, and will always be during a game. But he doesn't make it easy to say much in his favour on here.

I know what caused it Dave.....but we are talking about one of THE best managers.

It was a factor, it happens.

look at the principle, it doesn't always work out......did it work for Ron at Blues?

back on topic

Its still early... Steve still has a lot to get right and loosing influential players like Jedinak, Kodjia and Adomah is not helping him.

its like one step forward, two steps back.

Edited August 7, 2017 by TRO

[andym]

9 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

He won promotion less than 18 months ago 

Through the lottery of the playoffs, after finishing 6 points behind the top 3 in 4th. The team he had that season included Dawson, Davies, Robertson, Livermore, Huddlestone, Elmohamady, Snodgrass, Diame and Hernandez. Thats an incredibly strong core of players for the championship.

Infact, looking at the respective squads of the teams that finished top 4, Hull probably had one of the strongest, it certainly wasn't any worse than Burnley, Boro or Brighton. And yet under Bruce they finished 6 points behind.

Yes they ultimately got the same outcome, but i don't want us to be risking having to go through the playoffs. All it takes is an off day, even a single mistake, and we are stuck in this league for another season.

Its got to be top 2 for me given the resources Bruce has had, and i don't think it is an unrealistic demand at all.

 

 

[markavfc40]

First time I have commented in this thread since the game.

Starting with how we lined up then I think he made 3 debatable calls didn't he. Starting Gabby and Bacuna and choosing to play Lansbury in the advanced role. I think two of them worked and one, Bacuna, didn't.

In terms of the performance I thought we started the game really positively and that showed in the fact we could have been two up inside 7 minutes. Overall in the first half we played very well and had we have gone in 2 or 3 up it wouldn't have been an injustice. We didn't though and I'd imagine the first thing the Hull manager told his players was that we have gotten away with that now lets take advantage of that fact. They then came out on the front foot and we came out without anything like the intensity we started the first half and handed them the initiative. I think Bruce made the changes he did 10 minutes too late. In the end though we had a great chance still to win the game and at full time took the least we deserved from it.

I don't think you can draw anything conclusive from the game. I was pleased with how we started  it and the first half overall but disappointed in how we started the second half, that we allowed Hull to take the initiative and how long it took the manager to respond.

We have to learn from this. We have to ensure we maintain the intensity we started the game with and ensure we maintain it until the game is won. I am sure the manager didn't send us out telling us to take our foot off the gas but he certainly had the power to change things earlier having seen that was the case. Going forward week in week out we need to see 2 half's like the first half then I am sure we will all be happy. Hopefully we aren't far away from seeing that.

Edited August 7, 2017 by markavfc40

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

First time I have commented in this thread since the game.

Starting with how we lined up then I think he made 3 debatable calls didn't he. Starting Gabby and Bacuna and choosing to play Lansbury in the advanced role. I think two of them worked and one, Bacuna, didn't.

In terms of the performance I thought we started the game really positively and that showed in the fact we could have been two up inside 7 minutes. Overall in the first half we played very well and had we have gone in 2 or 3 up it wouldn't have been an injustice. We didn't though and I'd imagine the first thing the Hull manager told his players was that we have gotten away with that now lets take advantage of that fact. They then came out on the front foot and we came out without anything like the intensity we started the first half and handed them the initiative. I think Bruce made the changes he did 10 minutes too late. In the end though we had a great chance still to win the game and at full time took the least we deserved from it.

I don't think you can draw anything conclusive from the game. I was pleased with how we started  it and the first half overall but disappointed in how we started the second half, that we allowed Hull to take the initiative and how long it took the manager to respond.

We have to learn from this. We have to ensure we maintain the intensity we started the game with and ensure we maintain it until the game is won. I am sure the manager didn't send us out telling us to take our foot off the gas but he certainly had the power to change things earlier having seen that was the case. Going forward week in week out we need to see 2 half's like the first half then I am sure we will all be happy. Hopefully we aren't far away from seeing that.

ditto

[sne]

I don't think the Gabby on the left thing worked very well at all, even thou he scored a goal. Not his fault alone btw.

He started out lively but then after 20-30 minutes he went all poof like Keyser Soze and like that he was gone.

He made 16 passes for the entire game and combined with Bacuna they touched the ball a total of 59  times.

For 60-65 minutes of the game we had no left side. It was a mess.

 Gabby and Bacuna ended up at the same area as Gabby moved a bit more central, but as Taylor didn't follow along far enough up in attack in the space left by Gabby we had nothing on that side. 

Hull could focus on closing down Elmo and then that side was gone too.

Slutsky adjusted, Bruce did not, or at least way too late

Edited August 7, 2017 by sne

[Vive_La_Villa]

25 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

First time I have commented in this thread since the game.

Starting with how we lined up then I think he made 3 debatable calls didn't he. Starting Gabby and Bacuna and choosing to play Lansbury in the advanced role. I think two of them worked and one, Bacuna, didn't.

In terms of the performance I thought we started the game really positively and that showed in the fact we could have been two up inside 7 minutes. Overall in the first half we played very well and had we have gone in 2 or 3 up it wouldn't have been an injustice. We didn't though and I'd imagine the first thing the Hull manager told his players was that we have gotten away with that now lets take advantage of that fact. They then came out on the front foot and we came out without anything like the intensity we started the first half and handed them the initiative. I think Bruce made the changes he did 10 minutes too late. In the end though we had a great chance still to win the game and at full time took the least we deserved from it.

I don't think you can draw anything conclusive from the game. I was pleased with how we started  it and the first half overall but disappointed in how we started the second half, that we allowed Hull to take the initiative and how long it took the manager to respond.

We have to learn from this. We have to ensure we maintain the intensity we started the game with and ensure we maintain it until the game is won. I am sure the manager didn't send us out telling us to take our foot off the gas but he certainly had the power to change things earlier having seen that was the case. Going forward week in week out we need to see 2 half's like the first half then I am sure we will all be happy. Hopefully we aren't far away from seeing that.

I agree with most of this but we will never be that dominant for 90 minutes against a half decent team. Which is why it's crucial to finish teams off when in so much control. 

We saw Newcastle and Wolves do the same to us last season at Villa park and some how we got back in to the game and got a point. In Newcastle's case it seemed to be the exception and more often they not they finished teams off in spells rather than dominating 90 minutes. I really hope we can start to do the same.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

He won promotion less than 18 months ago 

He'll win promotion in about 9 months too.

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

He'll win promotion in about 9 months too.

Agree and the one competitive game I've seen  has not made me think otherwise. 

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, sne said:

I don't think the Gabby on the left thing worked very well at all, even thou he scored a goal. Not his fault alone btw.

He started out lively but then after 20-30 minutes he went all poof like Keyser Soze and like that he was gone.

He made 16 passes for the entire game and combined with Bacuna they touched the ball a total of 59  times.

For 60-65 minutes of the game we had no left side. It was a mess.

 Gabby and Bacuna ended up at the same area as Gabby moved a bit more central, but as Taylor didn't follow along far enough up in attack in the space left by Gabby we had nothing on that side. 

Hull could focus on closing down Elmo and then that side was gone too.

Slutsky adjusted, Bruce did not, or at least way too late

Gabby was standing off Aina and struggling with his strength......Green came on and Aina knew he was in a game.

Bacuna Stands off too much too.

you simply have too many doing that you lose the initiative and thats what we did.

Slutsky had to adjust he was losing.......Steve in his own admissions admits making the changes too late.......but its not all Steve Bruce for every fault.

Edited August 7, 2017 by TRO

[markavfc40]

39 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I agree with most of this but we will never be that dominant for 90 minutes against a half decent team. Which is why it's crucial to finish teams off when in so much control. 

Maybe you're right and I am expecting too much. If that is the case then based on Saturday we aren't far away at all from being a side that will excel in this league.

First 20 minutes we were by far the stronger team, last 10 mins we were the stronger team, first half we played very well and could have been 2 or 3 up at half time. You are right it was the failure to ram home our dominance in the first half half and then not having done so that 25 min spell after half time cost us where we allowed Hull to come at us and sat back too much.

Edited August 7, 2017 by markavfc40

[villa89]

3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

I've always though he was a decent manager

I never had him down as a good manager to be honest. Never really did much during his time in the premier league and never really bought that well and definitely never managed a team that played decent football. I just had him down as a grinder who might be able to get a team to 40 points. My thoughts on him have been confirmed by his time so far at villa. He's got the players but can't get them playing well or get the best out of them. That plus the fact that his post match comments are bordering on laughable and his in game management is horrendous means it's only a matter of time before he's sacked. If he got us promoted this season in first place (he won't) I'd still sack him the day after the season ended. 

[Villarocker]

Gabby scored and people are saying he did nothing for 60 minutes. If Green had played from the start would he have been in the same positions for the chances - who knows? Either way, it was Bruce's decision to pick that team and, by all accounts from the Watford game, Gabby looked a sure started anyway. So, I don't blame Bruce for starting him. 

What I do question is why sign Hourihane and Onomah but leave them out for Bacuna? Why sign Bree, look like your offloading Hutton and then, play Hutton ahead of Bree? What will Hogan make of being subbed for a player that plays centre back and who only recently earned himself a deal? 

Bruce made some strange decisions on Saturday and for me it appears that he doesn't really know what he is doing. Like I said before, I think he will be going within 8 games. I don't think Tony Xia will afford him the start to the season that Di Matteo had last season.

[terrytini]

32 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Maybe you're right and I am expecting too much. If that is the case then based on Saturday we aren't far away at all from being a side that will excel in this league.

First 20 minutes we were by far the stronger team, last 10 mins we were the stronger team, first half we played very well and could have been 2 or 3 up at half time. You are right it was the failure to ram home our dominance in the first half half and then not having done so that 25 min spell after half time cost us where we allowed Hull to come at us and sat back too much.

I agree with most of what you've said about the game.

But for me you could've said almost the same for the majority of our performances under Bruce so my question would be, what did you see, if anything, that you found significantly better than previous games ? Did you see anything that looked like the fruits of 10 months work, of 2 transfer windows, and a full pre-season ?

Because I'm sad to say I didn't.

Sadly, and I mean that, for me it was very very similar to many other games. And yes, had we converted another chance we could've won, but equally the converse is true.

I want it to work, God knows we could do without change. I like his character- although less so since he's comments about Jack,, FFP, and his use of Samba.

But his selections ? For me wherever he has to choose between a more offensive,, and a more defensive, option, he chooses the latter. Whenever he has to choose between changing things sooner, or changing them later, it's later. Whenever he has the opportunity to push on, or the temptation to tighten up, he does the latter.

In one sense it's early days.

But I hoped and hoped once we were out the hunt last season he'd show more intent, it didn't happen. And more of an identifiable plan. It didn't happen. I hoped and hoped we'd see it in the friendlies. It didn't happen.

And then I hoped I'd see it Saturday. And all around at the end of the game it was "same old same old".

I want him to succeed but he won't unless he adopts a more aggressive, positive approach to selection, tactics, and game management.

If we win the next three 1-0 playing like that it will convince me of nothing I'm afraid, because playing like that, with our defence, we can always win a few, but, as we saw last year, just as easily lose a few.

 

 

 

 

 

[bannedfromHandV]

7 hours ago, terrytini said:

He doesn't need to win me over.

And it's a good job, because we aren't scoring 4 goals very often.

1. Nearly didn't bother replying ... " anti Bruce pedestal" - childish and inaccurate. I'm on record a million times saying I want him to stay but he is too negative. That's not 'anti Bruce' it's a view that he's negative.

2. If you want to look at chances missed in one game and from that deduce things were satisfactory you can. I don't . And I don't because " we didn't take our chances" is the last hiding place when teams aren't winning when they should.

You make it sound like a one off scoring problem.

In 36 League games under Bruce we've only scored more than 1 goal ten times. In the nine where we've scored twice, the second goal has been a penalty 3 times and an own goal once. 

Thats 5 games where we've 'put away our chances' more than once - six when you add 3-1 Cardiff ( one a penalty).

Nearly all those 'extra goals' were scored by Kodja.

In the last 7 League games we've scored 6 goals. 

We don't score enough goals. We didn't score enough goals on Saturday. 

You can be fine with it, or view each individual game in its own right if you like, you can say selection is fine. You can blame luck, or the players. You can blame a Donald Trump if you want.

But for me, the issue is an inadequately positive approach which is evident in selection, tactics, and game management.

And I'm not really bothered if that makes you think "ohhh he's anti Bruce"........... all I care about is our results and I will feel free to comment on what I see as the cause.

 

 

You make it sound like it's all Bruce's fault, we haven't scored goals for years buddy, briefly did so under sherwood then reverted to type after getting battered at Southampton.

Anyway, I'm confident we're in for a good season, we might not break any records on the goals scored front but I'll take that if we get promoted.

[markavfc40]

20 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I agree with most of what you've said about the game.

But for me you could've said almost the same for the majority of our performances under Bruce so my question would be, what did you see, if anything, that you found significantly better than previous games ? Did you see anything that looked like the fruits of 10 months work, of 2 transfer windows, and a full pre-season.

Terry I think that first half was as good a half as any we have seen under Bruce. Up there with the first half against Preston at home last season for me. 

Selection wise I don't think it was negative given his options. A front 3 and Lansbury pushed well forwards with Whelan and Bacuna sitting. Had Grelaish been fit I think we'd have seen him in for Bacuna and playing behind Hogan with Lansbury deeper. Had Kodja been fit he would have started ahead of Gabby. You could make an argument that Hourihane should have started instead of Bacuna and played behind Hogan and I'd personally have been happier with that but that is not a major issue for me.

We couldn't have started the game much better and more on the front foot. We instantly pushed them back and could/should have been 2 up in first 7 mins. First half overall we were very good. Second half we didn't start with anything like the same intensity. I don't though imagine for a second Bruce said take your foot off the gas. I am sure he asked for more of the same. We also have to accept there was another team involved here and I am sure their manager ripped them a new one at half time, made them aware the game could already have been out of sight/lost for them and they did come out pumped up for the second half. My biggest criticism of Bruce is that in terms of substitutions he didn't react quick enough as the first thing I said when they scored is that it was coming. When he did react he made some decent calls and we regained a decent grip on the game and finished pretty strongly.

I don't think we are far away. I think in terms of personnel we are looking better than last season and I think based on a small sample of one game we gave our best half under Bruce. Two things went wrong, firstly we didn't put the game out of sight when we were dominant and when Hull upped their game the players/the manager didn't react quick enough. They aren't major deficiencies for me though.

Edited August 7, 2017 by markavfc40