Steve Bruce

[Mark Albrighton]

18 minutes ago, Xela said:

Rafa - 2 seasons- 89 points 

Bruce - 2 seasons - 83 points (2 games to go)

He hasn't been awful has he? 

 

It comes across to me that at times, it has been dreadful. But in fairness he’s got results when he needed them (much to the chagrin to plenty of Newcastle supporters).

Benitez has the good will of achieving promotion with them and I think it’s viewed that they haven’t progressed at all under Bruce whereas they might have done with Rafa.

Benitez obviously being a higher pedigree manager is a factor too. I do think Bruce receives disproportionately more support from pundits than perhaps he’s deserving, which only adds fuel to the fire if you don’t think he’s up to the job.

Additionally, it really does comes across as they just don’t like him. They don’t buy the local lad act. They hate(d) Pardew but at least he wasn’t trying to be “one of them” as far as they’re concerned.

That’s how I see it anyway.

[The_Steve]

Give Brucey that eight year contract Ashley. Go on. The fans want it. 

[villa4europe]

On 15/05/2021 at 19:05, Xela said:

Rafa - 2 seasons- 89 points 

Bruce - 2 seasons - 83 points (2 games to go)

He hasn't been awful has he? 

From that stat no

From the perspective of putting 10 men behind the ball, having 25% possession, 1 shot on target and getting 3 points... At home to Burnley...then yes it has 

Same as when he was at villa, even when they win there's no enjoyment in watching it 

[Mr_Dogg]

On 15/05/2021 at 18:31, Mark Albrighton said:

It comes across to me that at times, it has been dreadful. But in fairness he’s got results when he needed them (much to the chagrin to plenty of Newcastle supporters).

Benitez has the good will of achieving promotion with them and I think it’s viewed that they haven’t progressed at all under Bruce whereas they might have done with Rafa.

Benitez obviously being a higher pedigree manager is a factor too. I do think Bruce receives disproportionately more support from pundits than perhaps he’s deserving, which only adds fuel to the fire if you don’t think he’s up to the job.

Additionally, it really does comes across as they just don’t like him. They don’t buy the local lad act. They hate(d) Pardew but at least he wasn’t trying to be “one of them” as far as they’re concerned.

That’s how I see it anyway.

But he's dislikeable. It's not a mystery.

He will turn on the fans, the journalists, referees,  his own players during a bad run.

But it's all about him when things go well.

[Zatman]

On 15/05/2021 at 18:05, Xela said:

Rafa - 2 seasons- 89 points 

Bruce - 2 seasons - 83 points (2 games to go)

He hasn't been awful has he? 

 

Its hardly progress though

[Xela]

3 hours ago, villa4europe said:

From that stat no

From the perspective of putting 10 men behind the ball, having 25% possession, 1 shot on target and getting 3 points... At home to Burnley...then yes it has 

Same as when he was at villa, even when they win there's no enjoyment in watching it 

Rafa was dull though?

I'm not sticking up for Bruce, but they weren't playing expansive football before he went there. 

2 hours ago, Zatman said:

Its hardly progress though

True. But with Ashely there, how much chance of progress is there?

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, Xela said:

Rafa was dull though?

I'm not sticking up for Bruce, but they weren't playing expansive football before he went there. 

True. But with Ashely there, how much chance of progress is there?

Just seems like us under Lamberto, Ashley like Lerner was used as an excuse that the manager could use but managers with lesser budgets are doing better 

[Rino8]

21 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Just seems like us under Lamberto, Ashley like Lerner was used as an excuse that the manager could use but managers with lesser budgets are doing better 

Paulo Lamberto?

[rodders0223]

Rafa took them from the Championship with a negative net spend and built year on year with sod all.

Bruce spanked 100m on a well drilled Rafa side and took em nowhere

[Keyblade]

On 15/05/2021 at 13:05, Xela said:

Rafa - 2 seasons- 89 points 

Bruce - 2 seasons - 83 points (2 games to go)

He hasn't been awful has he? 

 

Twice the net spend in the last 2 seasons though, with the added benefit of not being a newly promoted side in 1 of them. Not exactly comparable.

[bobzy]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Twice the net spend in the last 2 seasons though, with the added benefit of not being a newly promoted side in 1 of them. Not exactly comparable.

Net spend isn’t a thing. It’s annoying that people refer to it so regularly. 

[Zatman]

12 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Net spend isn’t a thing. It’s annoying that people refer to it so regularly. 

It seems to have only popped up when Rafa managed Liverpool and there fans still cling to it now as if its a trophy win. now that its mentioned at Newcastle, maybe its a Rafa thing 

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Net spend isn’t a thing. It’s annoying that people refer to it so regularly. 

For the big teams with near unlimited funds it probably makes no sense, but I think it shows the progress of the smaller teams (or in this case a team owned by Mike Ashley). There's only so much progress you can make as a newly promoted club if you're selling players. You'd need to be backed the way us and Leeds have been from the jump to really make any headway. Or as they're doing, build slowly over multiple seasons and hope you don't get relegated.

As an extreme example, it's like if you were to compare the season we got relegated where we spent 60 million pounds (!) and this season where we spent 90. The figures seem very close but they're actually nowhere near comparable because in 2015 we sold 60m worth of talent including our talisman and best player (among others), whereas this season we sold *checks notes* Scott Hogan for 2m while essentially adding 90m worth of talent on top of what we already had. 

[bobzy]

9 hours ago, Keyblade said:

For the big teams with near unlimited funds it probably makes no sense, but I think it shows the progress of the smaller teams (or in this case a team owned by Mike Ashley). There's only so much progress you can make as a newly promoted club if you're selling players. You'd need to be backed the way us and Leeds have been from the jump to really make any headway. Or as they're doing, build slowly over multiple seasons and hope you don't get relegated.

As an extreme example, it's like if you were to compare the season we got relegated where we spent 60 million pounds (!) and this season where we spent 90. The figures seem very close but they're actually nowhere near comparable because in 2015 we sold 60m worth of talent including our talisman and best player (among others), whereas this season we sold *checks notes* Scott Hogan for 2m while essentially adding 90m worth of talent on top of what we already had. 

But you referenced it comparing Benitez and Bruce which is a nonsense because net spend has very little bearing on anything. Benitez “benefitted” from Newcastle somehow managing to get £30m for Sissoko and £25m for Wijnaldum the season they went down (also £8m for Remy Cabella whoever that is) - that’s £63m in from just 3 players so his “net spend” will always be favourable compared to Bruce’s. They’ve basically sold one player under Bruce (Perez - £30m).

In terms of actual spending (much more relevant than net spend), they both average £50m/season.

 

(I’d actually argue net spend has less relevance for smaller clubs by the way, depending on the sale. For example, if we sold Grealish for £100m this summer and spent £90m on the squad, we’d have a net spend of -£10m but would have invested heavily. The large player sale skews the rest dramatically). 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

But you referenced it comparing Benitez and Bruce which is a nonsense because net spend has very little bearing on anything. Benitez “benefitted” from Newcastle somehow managing to get £30m for Sissoko and £25m for Wijnaldum the season they went down (also £8m for Remy Cabella whoever that is) - that’s £63m in from just 3 players so his “net spend” will always be favourable compared to Bruce’s. They’ve basically sold one player under Bruce (Perez - £30m).

In terms of actual spending (much more relevant than net spend), they both average £50m/season.

 

(I’d actually argue net spend has less relevance for smaller clubs by the way, depending on the sale. For example, if we sold Grealish for £100m this summer and spent £90m on the squad, we’d have a net spend of -£10m but would have invested heavily. The large player sale skews the rest dramatically). 

I'm only comparing the 2 PL years each respectively. They sold Sissoko and co after they got relegated. But I mean even still it shows their team was weakened. It's not easy to replace good players regardless of how much money you get. See us re: Young, Milner, Downing, Delph, Benteke etc. Or Spurs with Bale and likely with Kane soon. If you're selling, especially if you're not a top 6 club, odds are your team is getting worse, regardless of how much you're compensated.

But the overall point isn't about net spend, it just illustrates it. It's about a newly promoted team vs an established team in their 4th season now. You can use whatever metric you like, net spend, wage bill, quality of squad etc. It's all higher now as to be expected. If Benitez was still here, you could argue they're actually regressing as a team. As it happens, a managerial change conveniently perfectly bisects their progression as a team, so one could make these comparisons I guess. It's like if we sack Smith at the end of the season and 2 years later, the new guy gets around the same number of points as him. Assuming we continue to invest in the team, that's a regression.

tl;dr: Bruce doing roughly about as well in terms of points as his predecessor isn't exactly a good look on him given where Newcastle are in terms of development.

[bobzy]

28 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I'm only comparing the 2 PL years each respectively. They sold Sissoko and co after they got relegated. But I mean even still it shows their team was weakened. It's not easy to replace good players regardless of how much money you get. See us re: Young, Milner, Downing, Delph, Benteke etc. Or Spurs with Bale and likely with Kane soon. If you're selling, especially if you're not a top 6 club, odds are your team is getting worse, regardless of how much you're compensated.

But the overall point isn't about net spend, it just illustrates it. It's about a newly promoted team vs an established team in their 4th season now. You can use whatever metric you like, net spend, wage bill, quality of squad etc. It's all higher now as to be expected. If Benitez was still here, you could argue they're actually regressing as a team. As it happens, a managerial change conveniently perfectly bisects their progression as a team, so one could make these comparisons I guess. It's like if we sack Smith at the end of the season and 2 years later, the new guy gets around the same number of points as him. Assuming we continue to invest in the team, that's a regression.

tl;dr: Bruce doing roughly about as well in terms of points as his predecessor isn't exactly a good look on him given where Newcastle are in terms of development.

On the first bit, there are plenty on here (the majority at the time, certainly) who never rated Sissoko and he became a source of amusement when signing for Spurs as he wasn't good enough etc. I guess perhaps to a similar extent that we sold players who we got relegated with that, ultimately, were good sales for club - Sissoko and Wijnaldum fitted that bill.  The latter obviously gone on to do good things, similar to Gueye and even Traore for us.  But it's strange to equate player sales as weakening a side vs gaining an opportunity to improve and bounce back.  FWIW, I actually think the Premier League purchases made under Bruce are better than those made under Benitez

On the bold bit - just too basic.  Far more elements at play such as promoted teams having large investments (Villa), promoted teams doing better than maybe expected (Leeds), lengthy injuries to hugely key players (Grealish, Saint-Maximin, Wilson etc.) etc etc.  If Newcastle win both their last games (big if, but they play Sheff Utd and Fulham so certainly possible) they'll have had their best season points-wise since being back in the Premier League despite having been without their best players for a large chunk of it.  There's nothing in that team that suggests they should be doing much better.  It's harsh, IMO, to call having the same number as points as a previous manager "regression".  Note that Benitez wasn't sacked, by the way, he walked.  They didn't get rid of him to improve the team (although that's certainly what would've been hoped for), he left to go elsewhere.

They're a side that should finish anywhere from 12th to 20th and they're going to finish somewhere in the middle of that, as they have done for 4 seasons or whatever it's been.  Whether it's been Benitez or Bruce, that's what they've done.

Edited May 19, 2021 by bobzy

[Mark Albrighton]

Finished 12th, which I certainly didn’t think would happen.

So a tip of the hat from me.

 

Still think he’s a bit rubbish and hope that he becomes a more considerate landlord (provided all that was accurate).

Ultimately I’m fairly happy that the Bruce/Geordie faithful double act and the entertainment that brings will most likely be on show again going into next season.

[Xela]

Just to update the figures:

Rafa - 2 seasons- 89 points 

Bruce - 2 seasons - 89 points 

Spoiler

Yes i know Rafa is a far better manager but I think he's done ok

 

[Phil Silvers]

Bruce got lucky when Willock ran golden out of the blue. Still, brilliant for everyone else that he will be in charge next year.

[sne]

New 8 year contract!