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20 hours ago, terrytini said:

In my view, we are doing fine, and will average the necessary 2 points per game we need.

Performances, from players and Manager, are up and down, and mostly below what we are capable of, but thars football, it’s the Championship.

I watched every game in the World Cup and didn’t see any team play consistently to their level.

For many, many games now Bruce has got all but 2 points per game on average out of this side, and, in my view, we will get better and better.

I ain’t debating it, as it’s all been said, but thats my thoughts.

and I agree.

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20 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Ah, but he has been coached... at his old club. How long will it be before he starts looking like a Bruce player?

our players are capable of coaching lower league teams themselves.

some things like passing and moving and positional play....yes needs for coaching.....where other players are involved.

closing a man down or getting your foot in, or stealing a ball off an opponent......you don't need coaching for that....Its basic stuff for an amateur footballer ,never mind a Pro.

when its not being done its lack of conviction....and lazy mindedness.

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1 hour ago, sne said:

True, better to say we should beat teams in terrible form.

They get their shit together later and fly up the table, or not. They were around bottom of the table and in terrible form when we played them.

You can't be in "terrible form" after 2 games ffs.

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Just because you don’t share the same view does not make it tripe. I don’t agree with the Bruce remainers but respect their opinion and, at times, read some valid counter- arguments. 

Whenever you field opposing views on any subject the arguments inherently will be cyclical and repetitive, a la Brexit. That is the nature of debate and what makes this forum so interesting; let’s try and embrace it. One day we might not have anything to deabate about (cough, cough) ?

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Villans - PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC - STEVE BRUCE, not what you think of other posters style or standards. Thanks 

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2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

No-one is really justifying anything - it's just the same old people posting a whole load of negative shit and others seem to be saying it's just not that bad.

 

We're unbeaten and are in the top 4.  How terrible!

"But we haven't played any top sides yet and will lose terribly wah wah" - let's just wait for an actual problem before we continue in meltdown crisis mode, eh?  I look forward to reading pages and pages of continued tripe in the meantime.

Unbeaten in the top 4 accepted but not convincingly in my book.

I am happy to wait for the inevitable to unfold by all means as I don't see what will dramatically change in games 96 - 106 of his tenure. It's not about waiting for it to happen to say 'I told you so' but more of a case of when, not if. 

The first 95 games still see's us in the same position under this manager, hearing the same shit doom and gloom press conference's, watching shite dour football yet with a squad capable of so much more. It's a fumbling around in the dark personna.

But hey, Bruce is the man that will take us up and I am being foolish for daring to think otherwise.

P.s I dread playing the bottom sides, let alone the 'big' clubs.

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5 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Unbeaten in the top 4 accepted but not convincingly in my book.

I am happy to wait for the inevitable to unfold by all means as I don't see what will dramatically change in games 96 - 106 of his tenure. It's not about waiting for it to happen to say 'I told you so' but more of a case of when, not if. 

The first 95 games still see's us in the same position under this manager, hearing the same shit doom and gloom press conference's, watching shite dour football yet with a squad capable of so much more. It's a fumbling around in the dark personna.

But hey, Bruce is the man that will take us up and I am being foolish for daring to think otherwise.

P.s I dread playing the bottom sides, let alone the 'big' clubs.

I think our football has been much better over the past 2 games - we've been "unlucky" not to win both (purely in terms of we haven't finished our dinner).  It's been anything but "shite dour football".  Each to their own.

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1 hour ago, DaveAV1 said:

Isn’t the reason the debate goes round in circles because it reflects what the team produces? Ok we’re playing a bit more attack minded, but we’re playing it with the same unsure, not quite got a real plan, make it up as we go along preparation as we have for the last 2 years.

So this produces the same sorts of performances and results and therefore the same argument. Which in turn prompts people to moan about the cyclical manor of the argument which becomes equally repetitive. People can only comment on what they see and unless that changes the comments won’t change.

 

This explains it for me.

I could make excuses for Bruce in the first two seasons, but when all the same warning signs persist in season 3, there comes a point where you lose faith.  I can pinpoint my time as the Ipswich game, and the matches since are reinforcing that view for me.  Some will have had that moment weeks/months ago, and will wonder why it's taken me this long.

 

If we keep throwing away easy points then I for one expect the same outcome. Took me longer to get there than some, less time than others.  I'd welcome a sustained run that changes my mind back, but it took 2.1 seasons to change it in the first place.

Edited by MrBlack
Removed musings on others' thoughts
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16 minutes ago, blandy said:

Villans - PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC - STEVE BRUCE, not what you thino of other posters style or standards. Thanks 

Noted ?

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1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I think our football has been much better over the past 2 games - we've been "unlucky" not to win both (purely in terms of we haven't finished our dinner).  It's been anything but "shite dour football".  Each to their own.

Bobzy, for the first time in a long time we played some really good football against Brentford in the first half.

Despite the result against Brentford I was one of the first to defend Bruce and applaud this style of football and thinking this could be us getting it together, but then when you look at the bigger picture we have only taken 1 step forward yet 2 steps back as a whole.

45 minutes of fluent football (which we are capable of playing more often) over the space of 5 league games (450 minutes) is not acceptable.

It's the ratio it is all happening of points dropped that he is doing 'just enough' to get by it seems.

It would be like having a Ferrari but never taking it over 80mph in fear you do something to crash it or get it damaged.

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9 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

 

It would be like having a Ferrari but never taking it over 80mph in fear you do something to crash it or get it damaged.

Good analogy, in more ways than one. 

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2 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said:

Terry, in the first half against Brentford, we looked dominant and Bruce said something along the lines of, "That's more like it. We had more energy about us and we were moving it about more quickly". So, I would assume he meant this should be the template for our playing style from now on.

Would you: (a) agree that is his wish/intention this season? (b) agree that is the way forward, or should all Villa fans be happy with points on the board irrespective of playing style? (c) have faith the first half Brentford model can be consistently replicated? (d) accept that if his team fails to reproduce the first half Brentford model 'enough', that will probably be the stick that fans not unreasonably use to finish him off with?

Hi as you’ve asked me questions I’ll answer !

(a) yes

(b) yes

(c) yes, although it’ll be better and worse

(d) as long as we average 2 points per game he should stay, regardless of how people judge the performances. As for fans finishing him off etc, I think the majority of fans would like him to succeed but a sizeable portion of those just no longer think he will, that’s fair enough, I don’t think they’ll want him out if we average 2 points per game, nor should they ( in my view). 

 

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1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

It always is. It fits the lazy "Bruce Ball" stereotype.

The issue isn't Bruce ball. The term is lazy, the issue is the fact that the team never looks convincing. Even when playing good football, we never look like winning. Wigan and Yeovil outplayed us for most parts of the games, we always look under threat, we fail to utilise the wingers by playing balls beyond defenders and still expect crosses into the box where there is no striker as we play one and he is always on the flanks. It's not just "Bruce ball", it's many different issues which have been the only consistent for nearly 2 years under Bruce.

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1 minute ago, Dick said:

The issue isn't Bruce ball. The term is lazy, the issue is the fact that the team never looks convincing. Even when playing good football, we never look like winning. Wigan and Yeovil outplayed us for most parts of the games, we always look under threat, we fail to utilise the wingers by playing balls beyond defenders and still expect crosses into the box where there is no striker as we play one and he is always on the flanks. It's not just "Bruce ball", it's many different issues which have been the only consistent for nearly 2 years under Bruce.

I don't really disagree with any of this. I'd argue we look convincing in a lot of games, but apart from that I don't disagree with your complaints, particularly the over reliance on wingers and crossing too much.

But that in itself goes against the usual lazy bruce-ball stereotype. 

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1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Unbeaten in the top 4 accepted but not convincingly in my book.

I am happy to wait for the inevitable to unfold by all means as I don't see what will dramatically change in games 96 - 106 of his tenure. It's not about waiting for it to happen to say 'I told you so' but more of a case of when, not if. 

The first 95 games still see's us in the same position under this manager, hearing the same shit doom and gloom press conference's, watching shite dour football yet with a squad capable of so much more. It's a fumbling around in the dark personna.

But hey, Bruce is the man that will take us up and I am being foolish for daring to think otherwise.

P.s I dread playing the bottom sides, let alone the 'big' clubs.

Since beating Barnsley Away last season Bruce has achieved 26 Wins and 11 Draws In 47 games.

As a comparison, with another well funded Manager who’s had a reasonable time in charge, of a Club expected to compete, Klopp at Liverpool has achieved 27 Wins and 13 Draws In his last 47 games.

I know there are all sorts of differences, but it’s just a example.

Im not sure our results either need to be, or are reasonably likely to be, much better. 

 

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Problem for me has been there are one or two players in attacking sense that just aren’t good enough.  It gets to them and our attacks break down. Good example being Adomah yesterday. He cuts inside twice and it totally opens up for him both times. Yet the shot is as tame as it gets. 

Elmo as much as I admiror his endeavour is not an attacking player. He is not going to open up defences. Our full backs can’t cross. One is raw and the other is right footed. 

Kodija keeps coming deep which leaves us light in the middle. He needs to stay up front. It may be due to him not being an out and out striker.

Having said all that we still create chances. Just not as many as we should be to finish teams off whilst on top. 

Now whilst all of the above can and will be improved with our new signings my biggest concern becomes our back four.

We can debate Bruce’s style of play all we want but while we have a makeshift back four we will concede goals every game. We look so shakey at the back against mediocre opposition I really fear to see us against one of the better teams. I think we could get a real beating.

It would be criminal if a centre half isn’t bought in. I honestly believe it will cost Bruce his job and potentially cost us a top 6 finish.

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We are 2 points worse off in like for like fixtures from last year. Notably beat Reading 3-0 at home and Ipswich 4-0 away.

Bruce defenders, my problem is I see no progress, the last 2 seasons he hasn't been good enough to get us up and I don't think anything has changed over the summer.

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8 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Since beating Barnsley Away last season Bruce has achieved 26 Wins and 11 Draws In 47 games.

Im not sure our results either need to be, or are reasonably likely to be, much better. 

26 *3 = 78, plus 11 x 1 = 47 games, 89 points, and in your opinion unlikely to be bettered. (I agree)

Last season, for comparison, from one fewer game Wolves went up with 99, Cardiff with 90. Fulham third with 88.

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30 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Since beating Barnsley Away last season Bruce has achieved 26 Wins and 11 Draws In 47 games.

As a comparison, with another well funded Manager who’s had a reasonable time in charge, of a Club expected to compete, Klopp at Liverpool has achieved 27 Wins and 13 Draws In his last 47 games.

I know there are all sorts of differences, but it’s just a example.

Im not sure our results either need to be, or are reasonably likely to be, much better. 

 

Whilst using the same comparison i’d say Klopp has strengthened the main areas of weakness, notably centre half and Goalkeeper. So should improve on his results to date. 

Villa on the underhand have an arguably weaker defence and goalkeeper since losing Johnstone and Terry. Even Samba came in and a did job for several games. If Bruce doesn’t address this issue we will not improve on a run of form that wasn’t even good enough for top 2. 

It’s a real concern in my opinion. 

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25 minutes ago, blandy said:

26 *3 = 78, plus 11 x 1 = 47 games, 89 points, and in your opinion unlikely to be bettered. (I agree)

Last season, for comparison, from one fewer game Wolves went up with 99, Cardiff with 90. Fulham third with 88.

In other words: not good enough. My view of Bruce is formed over the 90+ games he's been in charge, not just the first five of this season, nor the last 46...They recent results have just been the final straw for me.

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