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6 minutes ago, terrytini said:

A slight tangent if I may........you seem to be pretty sure there will be reinforcements, and that they will improve us.......yet by definition any player we now get on loan will be a risk anyway surely ? Is there much genuine quality out there waiting to play in the Championship ? I know we got Snodgrass last time, but Axel and Josh ? Were they really any better than our own youth ?

Not really expecting you to name players, just thinking out loud.

I think Abraham would be a huge boost.....although, for me its a leader of the line I would look for.

I was watching Olly McBurnie tonight, quite a display imo....we was linked at one time.....Bamford made a good assist too for Leeds.

For me Terry, without going silly on players like Costa.....I think we should have gone for Woods or Murray yonks ago,when they was at Leeds and Crystal Palace respectively...... before FFP took a grip.

Giraud on loan from Arsenal, before his move....look they must have their finger on the pulse, they have all the contacts, its just who's available and who is right for us.

The type of goal against Ipswich was very encouraging, like times of old....great cross, great header.....hopefully we can build on that.

When you see the likes of Bournemouth, Watford, Burnley etc and the signings they have made over the last 5 years or so.....it makes me cringe.....not being disrespectful to them by the way, just trying to put it in to perspective.

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43 minutes ago, TRO said:

No its nonsense to you because you disagree with it.

We currently have no forward line to talk about and you expect us to come in with performances that set the league alight.

If you are telling me that its Bruce's fault that Albert can't currently beat a man and Kodjia doesn't resemble the player he was.....Then I'm stuck for words...

Do you not recognise those 2 alone have such a big influence on our team?......Thats why he is trying to get players in.

Do you honestly think that the owners would sanction such a move to bring in players if they thought he could magic them back to form.?

 

It's a fact we've not lost "half a team". I wouldn't say our losses are insignificant, but they aren't major either, considering other available options.

I wouldn't necessarily blame Bruce for players dropping form. It happens, at every club. However, if they never regain form, I'd probably blame Bruce a little for that.

I most certainly do recognize their contribution from before. We obviously miss the their goals at the moment, but I'd hardly describe Albert as influential to the way we play. I'm undecided on JK, as I just don't understand how we'd best utilize him. 

Are we so certain the owners are sanctioning moves? I really hope so, because we look terrible. I guess we'll know in a few weeks time.

Fwiw, I fully agree with you regarding the need for a no.9 player. It's a paramount position to Bruce's way of playing. But even more so I think we need a quality centerback. I honestly don't understand loaning Axel again, especially since it seems unlikely he'll be used as CB.

We have enough of a goalthreat from midfield, I'd be okay with us not getting a new striker in, given how difficult we seem to have finding the correct one.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

Are you suggesting that the solution to a player out of form, is buy another one.  And that it Isn’t part of the managers duties to work with players that will inevitably have drops in form?

I think so yes, it creates competition, which then in turn creates hunger to be better than everyone who could possibly take your position, at the moment kodjia doesn't have that.

I also think you are rite a manager should work with an out of form player, but a manager can't hold a players hand every step of the way, and Kodjia must accept responsibility, realise what he is doing wrong and try to keep moving forward. Kodjia has had some close calls, where he gets to frustrated, very fast, needs to remain calm, concentrate on his task and cause the other teams problems in ways which results in goals, not bookable offences.

If kodjia doesnt start scoring regular and we make no attempt to bring in strikers, then we will be lumbered with an out of form player, no one to fill that gap, possibly till January or longer and it will cost us points, the options at least need to be there for us.

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11 minutes ago, vreitti said:

It's a fact we've not lost "half a team". I wouldn't say our losses are insignificant, but they aren't major either, considering other available options.

I wouldn't necessarily blame Bruce for players dropping form. It happens, at every club. However, if they never regain form, I'd probably blame Bruce a little for that.

I most certainly do recognize their contribution from before. We obviously miss the their goals at the moment, but I'd hardly describe Albert as influential to the way we play. I'm undecided on JK, as I just don't understand how we'd best utilize him. 

Are we so certain the owners are sanctioning moves? I really hope so, because we look terrible. I guess we'll know in a few weeks time.

Fwiw, I fully agree with you regarding the need for a no.9 player. It's a paramount position to Bruce's way of playing. But even more so I think we need a quality centerback. I honestly don't understand loaning Axel again, especially since it seems unlikely he'll be used as CB.

We have enough of a goalthreat from midfield, I'd be okay with us not getting a new striker in, given how difficult we seem to have finding the correct one.

 

 

I did in fact answer a post to Terry in my definition of " Lost half a team".....we are not talking just players here, we are talking influential players.

I am not sure how you don't value Albert as influential.....I think in his pomp he most certainly was, he was our main outlet ball for some time......I think his form loss is a massive set back....add that to Kodjia and its beginning to get serious and thats without the centre back as you rightfully say....or a dedicated left back.

Bruce has already said he expects to be busy....he wants between 3-5 players on loan.

The No 9 is me on my hobby horse......I have seen it before in the past.....we managed to find a suitable one and it transformed us as a team.

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Just thinking about Steves Dilemma over a No 9

I was just casting my mind back to 1979-80  season, when Ron Saunders was manager.....Andy Gray went the season before and we had no dedicated No 9 that season.....the team was not a bad team to be fair, but by their own standards struggled a bit and it was clear to see the gap, we were unbalanced.....The next season we signed Peter Withe and the rest is history, not only did we do what we did in terms of results, he was instrumental in changing the balance of the team and the  performances were enhanced.

Give us a No9 Steve of merchantable quality and many of your headaches will disappear.

Its a simple game this football.

Edited by TRO
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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its a simply game this football.

2

Image result for stanley unwin gif

 

You're right though, I agree :) 

 

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5 hours ago, TRO said:

Just think about Steves Dilemma over a No 9

I was just casting my mind back to 1979-80  season, when Ron Saunders was manager.....Andy Gray went the season before and we had no dedicated No 9 that season.....the team was not a bad team to be fair, but by their own standards struggled a bit and it was clear to see the gap, we were unbalanced.....The next season we signed Peter Withe and the rest is history, not only did we do what we did in terms of results, he was instrumental in changing the balance of the team and the  performances were enhanced.

Give us a No9 Steve of merchantable quality and many of your headaches will disappear.

Its a simply game this football.

You're getting yourself too tied up in this no 9 stuff.

What will you do when we sign a good one if Bruce is still in charge? Another excuse will be found I'm sure. Because the team will still be turgid and look like they don't know what formation they're playing.

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6 hours ago, TRO said:

Just think about Steves Dilemma over a No 9

I was just casting my mind back to 1979-80  season, when Ron Saunders was manager.....Andy Gray went the season before and we had no dedicated No 9 that season.....the team was not a bad team to be fair, but by their own standards struggled a bit and it was clear to see the gap, we were unbalanced.....The next season we signed Peter Withe and the rest is history, not only did we do what we did in terms of results, he was instrumental in changing the balance of the team and the  performances were enhanced.

Give us a No9 Steve of merchantable quality and many of your headaches will disappear.

Its a simply game this football.

I totally agree about the number 9. With the players we have and the tactics we adopt, a number 9 who can hold the ball up is essential. How many times does our centre forward appear isolated with a large gap between midfield and defence? It is The biggest failure of Bruce that he does not see this!

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7 hours ago, TRO said:

Good point Dave.

I think " Weedman" has very eloquently answered that in one of his posts tonight.....Where he highlighted how players like Johnstone, Adomah ( ironically) Jack ,Chester have/had improved their games on his watch.

I think it is the duty of the manager to attempt to return a player back to form.....but that does not always mean they are successful.....In which case they have a massive task, in his case, of getting us back to the Prem.

Don't forget Albert has been on this poor run since the back of last season, we can't hang around forever.....also Bruce himself has his own job to think about.

However, we don't know that he is/isn't ,working on him to return to form and its just not working.

I agree all those players have improved during Bruce’s watch and I won’t claim that as a coincidence. It also must be said that a number of players came here and didn’t get anywhere near the level of performance that they achieved at their former clubs, Hogan being the most glaringly obvious. The truth is none of us really know what goes on at BMH, so we form our opinions on what we can see in matches and even then those opinions vary, sometimes quite considerably, despite us all watching the same match. 

For me it’s not necessarily about style. Of course like most people I’d love to see flowing and entertaining football, and of course no matter who the manager is, some games will be better than others. It’s more important that there is a game plan that works and I think Steve Bruce is torn between his own cautious, pragmatic style and wanting to play a more attacking style that he feels fans expect. Almost inevitably he falls between two stools and doesn’t quite achieve either and we usually look unconvincing, win, lose or draw  

It’s perhaps significant that he often says that this is the chance he’s waited 20 years for. I think other clubs he’s managed are less in the glaring spotlight and he’s been allowed to get on with it his way, I won’t say without pressure, but with considerably less than here. The only other club of any size he’s managed is Sunderland, where he faced similar criticism. Teams often reflect their manager and essentially  I think he’s not convinced deep down that he’s quite good enough and as such has produced a team that in turn, is not quite good enough. 

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7 hours ago, Dave-R said:

I think so yes, it creates competition, which then in turn creates hunger to be better than everyone who could possibly take your position, at the moment kodjia doesn't have that.

I also think you are rite a manager should work with an out of form player, but a manager can't hold a players hand every step of the way, and Kodjia must accept responsibility, realise what he is doing wrong and try to keep moving forward. Kodjia has had some close calls, where he gets to frustrated, very fast, needs to remain calm, concentrate on his task and cause the other teams problems in ways which results in goals, not bookable offences.

If kodjia doesnt start scoring regular and we make no attempt to bring in strikers, then we will be lumbered with an out of form player, no one to fill that gap, possibly till January or longer and it will cost us points, the options at least need to be there for us.

You’re right, it’s a balance of helping the players we already have and providing competition through purchases/loans. A goal scorer is definitely a position where we are short. You can add to that centre half, where I think we are desperately under resourced. 

Edited by DaveAV1
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1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

You're getting yourself too tied up in this no 9 stuff.

What will you do when we sign a good one if Bruce is still in charge? Another excuse will be found I'm sure. Because the team will still be turgid and look like they don't know what formation they're playing.

Oh! I don't think I am.

I have seen it before as I have described in an earlier post.....I have also seen it with Fulham.

When the shape is right and we have players doing their bit and its still wrong......then I will be looking his way.

I think they do know what formation they are playing, but I guess "look like" is the operative words.

It's not excuses its reasons.

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31 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I agree all those players have improved during Bruce’s watch and I won’t claim that as a coincidence. It also must be said that a number of players came here and didn’t get anywhere near the level of performance that they achieved at their former clubs, Hogan being the most glaringly obvious. The truth is none of us really know what goes on at BMH, so we form our opinions on what we can see in matches and even then those opinions vary, sometimes quite considerably, despite us all watching the same match. 

For me it’s not necessarily about style. Of course like most people I’d love to see flowing and entertaining football, and of course no matter who the manager is, some games will be better than others. It’s more important that there is a game plan that works and I think Steve Bruce is torn between his own cautious, pragmatic style and wanting to play a more attacking style that he feels fans expect. Almost inevitably he falls between two stools and doesn’t quite achieve either and we usually look unconvincing, win, lose or draw  

It’s perhaps significant that he often says that this is the chance he’s waited 20 years for. I think other clubs he’s managed are less in the glaring spotlight and he’s been allowed to get on with it his way, I won’t say without pressure, but with considerably less than here. The only other club of any size he’s managed is Sunderland, where he faced similar criticism. Teams often reflect their manager and essentially  I think he’s not convinced deep down that he’s quite good enough and as such has produced a team that in turn, is not quite good enough. 

That's a fair post Dave....not sure on the last line, but hey ho.

Dave I have watched others teams games and their performances contrast.....Swansea v Leeds last night as an example.....even during the game there was good bits and not so good bits from both sides.

I think there is a danger, we are all ( including me) over analysing it.

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1 hour ago, M_Afro said:

I totally agree about the number 9. With the players we have and the tactics we adopt, a number 9 who can hold the ball up is essential. How many times does our centre forward appear isolated with a large gap between midfield and defence? It is The biggest failure of Bruce that he does not see this!

Oh I think he see's it.......seeing it, and being able to do something about it, is different.

I think the natural tendency for most players is to defend.....The No 9's job is to hold the ball up and give them the  confidence to join him.

Its when a player is playing that role and fails to hold the ball or gets physically relieved of the ball, the players behind tend to back off......If you see a leader of the line hold the ball reasonably consistently, players join him, its not necessarily coaching ( but it can be) its more instinct......If they win the ball regularly, other players come forward to join in....and it looks like they are attacking more, it has a knock on effect.

If they are consistently getting beaten a gap appears and players funnel back, in to precautionary mode.....and that knock on effect takes a grip and we look defensive.

Edited by TRO

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37 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I agree all those players have improved during Bruce’s watch and I won’t claim that as a coincidence. It also must be said that a number of players came here and didn’t get anywhere near the level of performance that they achieved at their former clubs, Hogan being the most glaringly obvious. The truth is none of us really know what goes on at BMH, so we form our opinions on what we can see in matches and even then those opinions vary, sometimes quite considerably, despite us all watching the same match. 

For me it’s not necessarily about style. Of course like most people I’d love to see flowing and entertaining football, and of course no matter who the manager is, some games will be better than others. It’s more important that there is a game plan that works and I think Steve Bruce is torn between his own cautious, pragmatic style and wanting to play a more attacking style that he feels fans expect. Almost inevitably he falls between two stools and doesn’t quite achieve either and we usually look unconvincing, win, lose or draw  

It’s perhaps significant that he often says that this is the chance he’s waited 20 years for. I think other clubs he’s managed are less in the glaring spotlight and he’s been allowed to get on with it his way, I won’t say without pressure, but with considerably less than here. The only other club of any size he’s managed is Sunderland, where he faced similar criticism. Teams often reflect their manager and essentially  I think he’s not convinced deep down that he’s quite good enough and as such has produced a team that in turn, is not quite good enough. 

Adomah scored a lot last year but his overall performaces weren’t all that and he’s been crap since January really. Chester has been a good player for a long time and still is. As for Jack and Johnstone they are good young players who are developing and getting better with games. Who’d have guessed if you trust young players they get better. You can argue the affect Bruce has on individual players but as you say one thing you can’t  argue about is the stuff we see on the pitch. We are a well drilled side unfortunately the defensive mindset of the coaches overides any attacking intent. We have some cracking attacking players and Bruce seems to be trying to get more in but he’s has to gamble a bit more as I think then the rewards would be far greater and outweigh any risk of losing. Last year in critical games we dropped points by not going at teams from the start or in the case of Wembley lost out on promotion. Tonight is one of those nights We have to beat the Brentford’s at home if we want to go up. 

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31 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Adomah scored a lot last year but his overall performaces weren’t all that and he’s been crap since January really. Chester has been a good player for a long time and still is. As for Jack and Johnstone they are good young players who are developing and getting better with games. Who’d have guessed if you trust young players they get better. You can argue the affect Bruce has on individual players but as you say one thing you can’t  argue about is the stuff we see on the pitch. We are a well drilled side unfortunately the defensive mindset of the coaches overides any attacking intent. We have some cracking attacking players and Bruce seems to be trying to get more in but he’s has to gamble a bit more as I think then the rewards would be far greater and outweigh any risk of losing. Last year in critical games we dropped points by not going at teams from the start or in the case of Wembley lost out on promotion. Tonight is one of those nights We have to beat the Brentford’s at home if we want to go up. 

I would just like to pick you up on that if I may.

  • Hogan....has not got anywhere close to replicating his form from Brentford....we can put forward all the reasons.......but a cracking player, not on his form.
  • Kodjia, on his day a fine player, still recovering from c a season out......current form....a cracking attacking player, not in my book, but thats an observation not a criticism.
  • RHM still learning his trade for me and tad lightweight on his current showing, will learn and improve......cracking attacking player, not for me just yet
  • Keinan Davis, good leader of the line on his day.....out with long term injuries, difficult to evaluate, but in terms of current contribution to the team.......Cracking attacking player, hardly.
  • Albert Adomah, on his day a real attacking threat and proved that in spells last season....Albert's form has gone awol for much too long now.....on current form cracking attacking  player.....never in a month of sundays.

As at team we have a chronic problem for one reason or another at the front end of the team.....The club are trying to do something about it albeit belated due to summer issues.....These type of problems have a profound impact on the team performance and we just cannot sweep them under the carpet and label them as another kind of problem.

Our current situation in terms of up front could be described as anything but cracking attacking players, our goals to date have come from all over the team, albeit Jimmy's offering on saturday gone did resemble his old self , fingers crossed.

We need reinforcements.....fingers crossed again.

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4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Thank god we have a game.

where's your sense of adventure??

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5 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Thank god we have a game.

Should be very interesting tonight.....many fans on here will be hoping the owners are running the rule over a possible, replacement to SB.

could fire him up to prove a point?

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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Should be very interesting tonight.....many fans on here will be hoping the owners are running the rule over a possible, replacement to SB.

could fire him up to prove a point?

Not sure what he could do differently? He just needs the players to be on their game and want it more than Brentford. 

I can see a draw.

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Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

Not sure what he could do differently? He just needs the players to be on their game and want it more than Brentford. 

I can see a draw.

I absolutely agree with you.....sadly, I was just being Devils advocate.

Villa Win....Jimmy back to form.

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