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6 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well....I have to accept its all in the eye of the beholder.

me....towards his departure, i just wanted a win.....but I confess, I loved the way we played, but with Parker and Houghton,& Richardson pulling the strings is there and surprise.....We had Yorke and Dean Saunders and Teale and McGrath.

I honestly believe this.....If Steve Bruce was as guilty as some make out( and I'm not saying he is great) there is enough ex players retired around Sutton Coldfield to have something to say about him.

I have always had empathy, with the notion you defend from the front.....We can't presently and subsequently he loses trust and I think that is another element, why he plays very cautiously.

I do not disagree with you, Sheepy or Dave J & AV1......about the spectacle.......I just think the problem is more than just SB.....I actually think he knows just like we do.

I will let you in to a little bit of Trivia.

I wrote a letter once ( only ever once) to Graham Taylor a long winded effort ( not like me, much) in drawing attention to some of our shortfalls, IMO of course.

He sent me a very polite letter back( what else would you expect form one of life's gentleman) saying Quote " Being aware of the problem and being able to do something about it is,however, two different matters"....dated 12 March 1990.....I still have the letter and as basic as it was.....its true.

We all have these theories of what they do, but in reality most of us have no idea of the trials and tribulations.

I am very cautious of criticising managers, on detail, no matter who they are, in fear of just simply not knowing the facts.....I watch the games and love winning and only when I feel we are not winning enough, do I join the band that says manager, no more.

Maybe I've cut Ron too much slack in the second half of his Villa tenure, and maybe memories are always more golden than reality. But that was a wonderful interlude amongst the historic and current realities of being a Villa fan.

Your memory is clearly sharper than mine TRO, but if you don't mind I'll remember our past with my own myopic rose tinted glasses lol!

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9 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

Maybe I've cut Ron too much slack in the second half of his Villa tenure, and maybe memories are always more golden than reality. But that was a wonderful interlude amongst the historic and current realities of being a Villa fan.

Your memory is clearly sharper than mine TRO, but if you don't mind I'll remember our past with my own myopic rose tinted glasses lol!

Sorry, It was not my intention to rain on your parade.....His football at times was great to watch.

Well, lets put things in to perspective.....No , my memory is not that good, I am very ably aided by my Aston Villa ( The complete Record)bible written so eloquently by Rob Bishop and Frank Holt and for fans like you....its well worth getting, if you don't already have it.

I was rather hoping there is an updated version, but not checked it out yet.....mine ends 2009/10

I do prove myself wrong at times just reading the thing.

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As you get older TRO you tend to live on your memories. I've watched so much average (and worse) football in my seven decades as a Villa fan, so the highlights probably get exaggerated in my mind.

I know that we can do better and will do better than we're doing now. I just hope I'm still around to witness it, lol!

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16 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

As you get older TRO you tend to live on your memories. I've watched so much average (and worse) football in my seven decades as a Villa fan, so the highlights probably get exaggerated in my mind.

I know that we can do better and will do better than we're doing now. I just hope I'm still around to witness it, lol!

I'll drink to that

It will happen.

The summer was a massive kick in the teeth for everyone and it just cannot be exaggerated how bad it was.....We have a "guardian Angel" I am sure.....because we really have got out of Jail.

I am more excited about these owners Nous, than their wealth, because I find it a little impertinent talking about their wealth( its their private business), they will just offer us flexibility to trade intelligently, I fancy.

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3 hours ago, villabromsgrove said:

I accept that TRO, the first eighteen months were the best, but there was always that expectation from an Atkinson team.

Big Ron was a brilliant manager - talk about Bruce man management ? He could not hold a candle to Big Ron - I'm pretty sure Ron must put his head in his hands when watching us 

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20 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Big Ron was a brilliant manager - talk about Bruce man management ? He could not hold a candle to Big Ron - I'm pretty sure Ron must put his head in his hands when watching us 

Think you can only say this if you gloss over some of his later games with Villa. What he was doing recruiting John Fashanu I will never know and he allowed the entire squad to become slow and unfit. The start to the 1994-5 season was pretty depressing. By comparison Bruce's boy are a bunch of spritely gazelles

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5 hours ago, TRO said:

I would be very surprised if you took a poll across the industry and asked the simple question...

who is the better manager Steve Bruce or Dean Smith......and Dean Smith won.

You could probably do the same poll using Lambert and Mcliesh compared to Dean Smith and the later still wouldn’t win. 

Not an opinion on Bruce. 

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5 hours ago, TRO said:

I would be very surprised if you took a poll across the industry and asked the simple question...

who is the better manager Steve Bruce or Dean Smith......and Dean Smith won.

If you took a poll of who is more tactically astute, then it may be a different result, and whose team play the better football, then it would definitely be a different result.

Like I said, if he came to us, I'd be very confident In his ability to do a good job.

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5 hours ago, TRO said:

I would be very surprised if you took a poll across the industry and asked the simple question...

who is the better manager Steve Bruce or Dean Smith......and Dean Smith won.

Well aside from Bruce being " one of the boy " and his time spent in the game - this is not a realistic question I don't feel TRO - should you reword the question to state who is the more forward thinking and dynamic coach - I would counter that you get a different answer ?

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14 hours ago, Lord Willard said:

 

Dean Smith isn't a manager though... just a face to Brentford's system. 

Our villa engine has blown and needs new parts before you can even consider putting back together.

I again call BS on this Dean Smith malarkey. What he is, is a head coach in a system with good scouts and a DOF etc. You know like a modern football head coach in a modern set up (modern for the UK anyway).

What he isn't is a manager who claims to run everything from the scouts, to the training to the tea ladies knickers, the board room and the football direction of the under 11s.

I imagine like most successfull clubs with a head coach recruitment is the result of a discussion between the head scout, the head coach and the director of football. That DOES NOT mean he's a "face" for the Brentford system. It means he's the head coach responsible for implementing the wider footballing philosophy of the club on the pitch every game. you know that team that have absolutely **** schooled us every time we have played them? Yeah. That team.

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10 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Although for some reason the work Steve has done here over the last couple of seasons gets thrown around as a positive all the time, surely that is in the past as well?

I am more worried about the future, a potentially shaky future that three wins against poor opponents attempts to gloss over. To not include the past in one's thought process is silly. As a wise man once said, "to not understand the mistakes of the past means one is doomed to repeat them" (not the exact words of the quote but the same meaning). All I see is us continuing to repeat the mistakes of the past. Once that stops happening I will stop criticising it. 

Absolutely top post Stag. Sums it up perfectly.

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53 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Think you can only say this if you gloss over some of his later games with Villa. What he was doing recruiting John Fashanu I will never know and he allowed the entire squad to become slow and unfit. The start to the 1994-5 season was pretty depressing. By comparison Bruce's boy are a bunch of spritely gazelles

Football wise though, Ron's villa were a metic f*ckton better than this lot. As a coherent unit capable of moving the ball and doing actual football type things, like passing it round the opposition and creating chances and stuff. At the end I'll agree he went off the boil, but when he was good with us we played some great stuff consistently. I have seen great stuff from Bruce's side on perhaps 1 game in 10, and only consistently for the peroid where Hogan was scoring, then the dip and then the Wolves game we were great. Apart from that, 80 odd games isn't it? Not a patch on Ron, not even close.

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One of the things that annoys me about football these days, is the disposable attitude we have towards footballers. Bruce really seems to make his mind up about certain players quickly and does not appear to have the skills/patience to work with the players to improve them.

Players like Taylor, Bjarneson, Lansbury, Bree et al were all fairly big investments for the club. They have all, at times, previously shown the ability to perform at a level consistent or better than the level we find ourselves at and yet they have not come close to replicating that with Bruce. Why is he so incapable of developing players?!

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If we are making up answers to imaginary polls (nothing wrong with that, its a football forum)... My guess is if you took a poll of Championship fans with the question "would you prefer Steve Bruce as your manager rather than what you have?" All but 4 teams would be majority "yes". 

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9 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

If we are making up answers to imaginary polls (nothing wrong with that, its a football forum)... My guess is if you took a poll of Championship fans with the question "would you prefer Steve Bruce as your manager rather than what you have?" All but 4 teams would be majority "yes". 

Leeds, Hull, blues and cant think of 4th one. Is it Villa? ?

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42 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

One of the things that annoys me about football these days, is the disposable attitude we have towards footballers. Bruce really seems to make his mind up about certain players quickly and does not appear to have the skills/patience to work with the players to improve them.

Players like Taylor, Bjarneson, Lansbury, Bree et al were all fairly big investments for the club. They have all, at times, previously shown the ability to perform at a level consistent or better than the level we find ourselves at and yet they have not come close to replicating that with Bruce. Why is he so incapable of developing players?!

Is this question a bit confused? If the complaint is that Bruce failed to get the levels of performance out of players that they achieved at previous clubs, then the question is surely about getting the best out of players who have already developed? Not why can''t he develop players? The question about development perhaps relates more to bringing on our youth squad.

Bruce is regularly accused of abject failure in both areas. There is a case to make here but not as extreme and absolute as is often expressed. Using terms like "incapable" is divisive and hard to justify. I would just reflect that it's not like the club had a fantastic record of getting top level performances from established players before he arrived. Nor did we have much success in bringing youth players to first team level. This frustration has been around the club for a long time.

So it's not like he brought a superb system to a grinding halt. And he can claim a success in converting Jack Grealish from fitful talented wannabe playboy to a  much more focused, fitter and effective player than we had ever seen before.

Also his remit under Xia was almost certainly not much to do with developing players. Xia needed promotion to stop his financial house of cards collapsing and in that environment players  would not have had much time to settle in before being sidelined if they couldn't play effectively. Maybe if the new owners indicate they are prepared to sacrifice instant success a little to allow players some space and time to get to better levels of performance, there may be a different approach.

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3 hours ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

If we are making up answers to imaginary polls (nothing wrong with that, its a football forum)... My guess is if you took a poll of Championship fans with the question "would you prefer Steve Bruce as your manager rather than what you have?" All but 4 teams would be majority "yes". 

I'm not so sure. I talk to a lot of fans and when I say I am a Villa fan, most have said something about Bruce being a poor manager. A Portsmouth friend of mine is the only one I can think of who wanted Bruce at his club. I hardly hear a good word about him, not that it matters, but I think the media over-value him because of his two (?) promotions, a lot of his negatives (relegations, players bought and then dumped) gets glossed over. 

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