Reivax_Villa Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) I will continue to support Bruce however i am aware that his limitations as a manager has shown throughout our performances here. I watch enough football to know the impact a manager can have on the first team. Bruce had his impact, which was stabilising us, making us tougher to beat and ensuring that our players are committed to the cause, something that was previously lacking and was the cause to our demise. There will always be a split between fans on Bruce some are content by winning by any means necessary whereas other fans want us to have substance and purpose to how we play. Someone mentioned what impact has Biesla had at Leeds so far.. He has had a great impact to the way Leeds play, that is a different Leeds united to the one we saw last season. The same conversation took place last year when Nuno Santo took over from Wolves over the summer and changed the clubs philosophy and got them promoted, Leeds could do the same. Due to unforeseen circumstances this summer we were never in a position to change our manager. Our major problem is that we have flattered to deceive and we have done so for the past year, we have played poorly and scraped wins. We do not play attacking football, we do not have patterns of play. For me personally as much as it gripes me to see Villa play in the manner we do, I have to accept that Bruce will get the remaining loan window to bring in players. He will be given time to bed them in and then depending on form this will determine his future here. If by mid December we are faltering in our pursuit of promotion, ideally a head coach with some stature with new ideas should be brought in. Edited August 13, 2018 by Reivax_Villa 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: You can? 4-1 wolves 4-0 ipswich 4-0 burton Barnsley 3-0, 3-0 Sunderland 3-0 reading That seems more than one hand to me There is scintillating football and a good performance, there is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacketspuds Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Bruce has to use the loan window to sort out the squad so that he isn't tempted to play players out of position. If things don't improve at that point then I will be concerned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: Bruce's job for the last two seasons has been to get the best out of our squad. You need a system to do that, and SB is still trying to find one. I think he has got a system. In the main its 4-1-4-1 We have a striker that struggles to hold the ball up or score goals...on the back of season long lay off....2 former academy players who both have injury issues.....and Hogan who is a non firing dud and is injured We had 2 wingers, one has gone back on loan and the other has lost form, Green is just coming out of a long injury lay off....and is not up to speed. We have our talisman Center Half left the club for well documented reasons and we need a dominating Centre Half to play alongside our (ball playing sweeper type) other Centre Half. We need a dedicated Left back to compliment the back line.....Taylor is just not good enough. So all in all, no system will compensate or cover up those shortfalls.....The squad is simply not complete or balanced in terms of players on top of their game. Whether fans think its taken this long to be here, is another debate.....but we are where we are......Incomplete IMO. If you have players that are simply not contributing sufficiently to the team effort, the opposition will exploit it.....and then players that are ,move over to help out and the team loses its shape.....when you concede as a result of that, the team starts to resemble a shambles as if nothing is right. A ship can be in good order overall......but a hole in the side could sink it....all the good stuff goes down with it. We are short of players to do important jobs.....crucial jobs and its affecting the shape and balance of the overall team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 On Saturday Steve said that he'd made so many changes because he thought we needed more strength on the pitch against Wigan (I guess that was to get Jedinak in as CB). Why did we feel it necessary to "change" to accommodate a newly promoted team? This is where my point about having a system comes in. Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham all had well rehearsed and settled systems last season. Mostly it worked for them and sometimes it didn't .... but they didn't change their respective systems, and it paid off for them. That's why we need a progressive head coach. We have to produce a "Villa system" and practice it until it's effective and totally instinctive. We have to lose the reactive 'underdog' mentality. Six points max from two games is great, but we're relying on luck to keep it going. No goals yet from attacking players is a fair indication of that. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Like I always say, I enjoy it when the debate in this thread is about style of football. It usually means we’re winning football matches and there’s nothing else to moan about. True. There is no right style, else they all be playing it. I love the debate....I find it so interesting.....some folk I generally disagree with, do make some good points Is it the manager or is it the players.....what comes first the chicken or the egg? I would say both, but I do also subscribe to the theory that you need quality players as a manager to get your points over.....Would Nuno have done what he did with the previous years team? Will Biesla sustain his massive impact without further aquisitions? The game itself is a moving feast, we can all change our minds form time to time too. Bring it on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: On Saturday Steve said that he'd made so many changes because he thought we needed more strength on the pitch against Wigan (I guess that was to get Jedinak in as CB). Why did we feel it necessary to "change" to accommodate a newly promoted team? This is where my point about having a system comes in. Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham all had well rehearsed and settled systems last season. Mostly it worked for them and sometimes it didn't .... but they didn't change their respective systems, and it paid off for them. That's why we need a progressive head coach. We have to produce a "Villa system" and practice it until it's effective and totally instinctive. We have to lose the reactive 'underdog' mentality. Six points max from two games is great, but we're relying on luck to keep it going. No goals yet from attacking players is a fair indication of that. Jedinak was injured, and Mcginn wasn't here for the first game. Elphick looked ropey in that first match, as did Albert. I don't think he did change to accommodate Wigan - he put out what he thought was his strongest team. "Progressive head coach to implement a villa system" - Just a load of words mate - we don't need any of that, we just need a guy who puts out the strongest 11 each week to win as many games as possible. Sure Bruce has his shortcomings - but with a squad of 25 and 3 subs per game you will nearly always have scope for disagreement. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxahunter Posted August 13, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: On Saturday Steve said that he'd made so many changes because he thought we needed more strength on the pitch against Wigan (I guess that was to get Jedinak in as CB). Why did we feel it necessary to "change" to accommodate a newly promoted team? This is where my point about having a system comes in. Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham all had well rehearsed and settled systems last season. Mostly it worked for them and sometimes it didn't .... but they didn't change their respective systems, and it paid off for them. That's why we need a progressive head coach. We have to produce a "Villa system" and practice it until it's effective and totally instinctive. We have to lose the reactive 'underdog' mentality. Six points max from two games is great, but we're relying on luck to keep it going. No goals yet from attacking players is a fair indication of that. Precisely. We shouldnt set up to accomodate our opponents, we should play our own game/style no matter who we play. Its so small time to be adjust to whom we meet instead of standing by what you represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: On Saturday Steve said that he'd made so many changes because he thought we needed more strength on the pitch against Wigan (I guess that was to get Jedinak in as CB). Why did we feel it necessary to "change" to accommodate a newly promoted team? This is where my point about having a system comes in. Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham all had well rehearsed and settled systems last season. Mostly it worked for them and sometimes it didn't .... but they didn't change their respective systems, and it paid off for them. That's why we need a progressive head coach. We have to produce a "Villa system" and practice it until it's effective and totally instinctive. We have to lose the reactive 'underdog' mentality. Six points max from two games is great, but we're relying on luck to keep it going. No goals yet from attacking players is a fair indication of that. I am not disagreeing with your overall point....I just think the teams you mentioned had more rounded and consistent individual players than we did/do.....We have players that are good at some things and not at others i.e Jed usually good in the air iffy on the ground ( too slow).....when you have too many players like that ( and I think we do) the line up is forever changing. Coaches can only do so much......They can teach and guide, but they can't play for you....they can't make decisions in a dynamic game and that aspect alone is crucial, I see players struggling with that one week and another week ok....I don't think for one minute that Steve Bruce or his coaches has not drummed in to Kodjia to release the ball intelligently, sometimes he does, most of the time he doesn't.....thats the player, not systems. I have heard rakes of players talking about Steve Bruce, I have spoken to ex players about Steve Bruce privately......never has anyone said he has no idea how to set a team up. He makes mistakes and errors of judgment of course he does, but I don't subscribe to a reference to system as wholly and soully the manager. There are fundamentally 2 parts to a manager The players he buys....The recruitment and the prudency of it. Blending the team. For my penny worth.....where we want to go, he still hasn't got the team right, some of his buys are good, some are debatable......Hogan was his Achilles Heel.....He has inherited Richards and McCormack, which are an Albatross around his neck in terms of freeing up wages. Until you have the personnel right, The blend is bound to look iffy......some weeks it looks ok, some weeks its turgid. Systems are great, Managers have to set them up.....but just as important players have to buy in to them and work them.....they don't do that, the system fails. just to pick out 2 incidents from Saturdays game....that has an impact on our game.....Jed give a duff back pass ( Not for the first time) and Thor has the touch of a rapist in the centre of his own half......A manager can do nothing about that during the match.....but it all contributes to the spectacle and the overall performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxahunter Posted August 13, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, hippo said: Jedinak was injured, and Mcginn wasn't here for the first game. Elphick looked ropey in that first match, as did Albert. I don't think he did change to accommodate Wigan - he put out what he thought was his strongest team. "Progressive head coach to implement a villa system" - Just a load of words mate - we don't need any of that, we just need a guy who puts out the strongest 11 each week to win as many games as possible. Sure Bruce has his shortcomings - but with a squad of 25 and 3 subs per game you will nearly always have scope for disagreement. Bruce must have a selectionproblem for the next game, Elphick who looked ropey, made mistakes and nearly gifted Hull a goal or Jedinak who looked ropey and gifted Wigan a goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, TRO said: some people do have 6 fingers. Don't you bring Blues fans into this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, hippo said: Jedinak was injured, and Mcginn wasn't here for the first game. Elphick looked ropey in that first match, as did Albert. I don't think he did change to accommodate Wigan - he put out what he thought was his strongest team. "Progressive head coach to implement a villa system" - Just a load of words mate - we don't need any of that, we just need a guy who puts out the strongest 11 each week to win as many games as possible. Sure Bruce has his shortcomings - but with a squad of 25 and 3 subs per game you will nearly always have scope for disagreement. Just one point......A number 9 doing his job.......will change the face of our team alone. It will bring in the midfield and subsequently alleviate pressure on the defence. I hear all the arguments of Strikers needing service and they do ......BUT they have to help themselves too. Its arguably the hardest position on the pitch.....they sometimes need to remind us. I like Kodjia when he is firing......but he is an inside forward for me who plays off a big man......He hasn't got the natural aggression of say Costa, who can give as good as he gets....He would be ok playing off Duncan Ferguson and the like. I see a problem for us there at present.....and I think further more its affecting the whole team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeAVFC Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 wins out of 2, can't ask for much more than that tbf. Although admittedly we've played 2 poor sides and got fortunate on Saturday. End of the day if we win games and are in the top 2/top 6 then fine. If it's the same turgid shit as last year and we're off the pace then **** him off. Circumstances meant we couldnt get rid in the summer, he's lucky to still be in a job. It's absolutely last chance saloon for him now. The reality is that if the owners had come in a week or two earlier than they did and had more preparation time then Bruce would not be in a job right now. It's over to him to deliver now no more excuses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Reivax_Villa said: I will continue to support Bruce however i am aware that his limitations as a manager has shown throughout our performances here. I watch enough football to know the impact a manager can have on the first team. Bruce had his impact, which was stabilising us, making us tougher to beat and ensuring that our players are committed to the cause, something that was previously lacking and was the cause to our demise. There will always be a split between fans on Bruce some are content by winning by any means necessary whereas other fans want us to have substance and purpose to how we play. Someone mentioned what impact has Biesla had at Leeds so far.. He has had a great impact to the way Leeds play, that is a different Leeds united to the one we saw last season. The same conversation took place last year when Nuno Santo took over from Wolves over the summer and changed the clubs philosophy and got them promoted, Leeds could do the same. Due to unforeseen circumstances this summer we were never in a position to change our manager. Our major problem is that we have flattered to deceive and we have done so for the past year, we have played poorly and scraped wins. We do not play attacking football, we do not have patterns of play. For me personally as much as it gripes me to see Villa play in the manner we do, I have to accept that Bruce will get the remaining loan window to bring in players. He will be given time to bed them in and then depending on form this will determine his future here. If by mid December we are faltering in our pursuit of promotion, ideally a head coach with some stature with new ideas should be brought in. I see the merits in that post.....I think, If you are right. These owners will act. but remember a season is 46 games.....we will see with Biesla. Nuno ( not taking any credit away by the way)was aided by many well gifted players from Portugal , who were able to execute his theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 27 minutes ago, hippo said: "Progressive head coach to implement a villa system" - Just a load of words mate - we don't need any of that, we just need a guy who puts out the strongest 11 each week to win as many games as possible. We've had that for the last two seasons and it hasn't got the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, TRO said: Just one point......A number 9 doing his job.......will change the face of our team alone. It will bring in the midfield and subsequently alleviate pressure on the defence. I hear all the arguments of Strikers needing service and they do ......BUT they have to help themselves too. Its arguably the hardest position on the pitch.....they sometimes need to remind us. I like Kodjia when he is firing......but he is an inside forward for me who plays off a big man......He hasn't got the natural aggression of say Costa, who can give as good as he gets....He would be ok playing off Duncan Ferguson and the like. I see a problem for us there at present.....and I think further more its affecting the whole team. I think this is the 2nd most most blaring hole in the first 11, that role is vital to our attacking phase of play. We all witnessed the difference Mitrovic made when he supplemented Fulham in Jan last season. It allowed them to do their probing much further up the pitch. I don't think this is lost on Bruce. As you say, if we added such a forward, to a commanding CB (with aggression to attack the ball) and a natural left footed LB (who is primarily robust in defence but could offer a decent delivery), I think we could make a real fist for promotion. Of an interesting side note, I think Davis could potentially stand in at CF and RDL at LB and we could be competitive in the Bruce system. However, I just don't see a commanding CB in our squad at all and as such it has to be a priority for me. I think Huth (if the price is right) could be an inspired signing, or perhaps younger options in a similar mould (the archetypal CB) are getable. Edited August 13, 2018 by GENTLEMAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, GENTLEMAN said: I think this is the 2nd most most blaring hole in the first 11, that role is vital to our attacking phase of play. We all witnessed the difference Mitrovic made when he supplemented Fulham in Jan last season. It allowed them to do their probing much further up the pitch. I don't think this is lost on Bruce. As you say, if we added such a forward, to a commanding CB (with aggression to attack the ball) and a natural left footed LB (who is primarily robust in defence but could offer a decent delivery), I think we could make a real fist for promotion. Of an interesting side note, I think Davis could potentially stand in at CF and RDL at LB and we could be competitive in the Bruce system. However, I just don't see a commanding CB in our squad at all and as such it has to be a priority for me. I think Huth (if the price is right) could be an inspired signing, or perhaps younger options in a similar mould (the archetypal CB) are getable. you are simply inside my head.....I could not agree more. Furthermore, I will go as far as to say.....get these positions right and we will blow this league away. I remember the season we went up in 1974/75 with Keith Leonard leading the line and despite him blighted by injury was so instrumental in that team finishing second to Man U. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: You can? 4-1 wolves 4-0 ipswich 4-0 burton Barnsley 3-0, 3-0 Sunderland 3-0 reading That seems more than one hand to me Not in Norfolk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villianusa Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 22 hours ago, Dave J said: Why do you see it differently ? I don't know the truth and I'm not going to make one up to suit an agenda. You could well be right, but neither of us know. What we do know is there is mutual respect between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Czechlad Posted August 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2018 Our home form is fantastic. If we can figure out how to be more consistent on the road, we are a shoe in for promotion. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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