Steve Bruce

[villa89]

Even though I am a "Bruce outer" I think everyone will agree that overall in terms of the signings he has made they have been clever and well intentioned with really only Scott Hogan being the only howler. Even this summer with a small budget he has done well and targeted the right positions for an upgrade.

[sidcow]

Lets all meet up on page 2000

Won't it be strange when we're all fully grown?

[Zatman]

10 minutes ago, villa89 said:

It's pretty obvious he didn't. We know Jack wanted to leave and he wasn't convinced to stay after a bid was accepted. He stayed because Spurs refused to meet the asking price. 

I think though if we had a different manager his attitude might be different

But its ifs and buts

[terrytini]

20 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

The cyclical nature of the argument can be a little wearing at times, but doesn’t devalue the argument from either side. Almost 2000 posts ago SB was the manager and still is, so it really isn’t any surprise that criticism and praise stay pretty consistent. Since you and I are regular posters we could both be guilty of fanning the flames!

I differ with you there. 

I actually find it odd that criticism remains the same as it was 2000, or even 500, pages ago. There is a marked contrast between our results ( objective) and - arguably - approach ( subjective) in the last 40 games compared to his first 40.

As such, whilst I understand people can and will have issues, pretty much game by game ( that’s football) I can’t understand why the degree, level, and nature, of the criticism shoukd have stayed consistent. Surely a better points return warrants less, by whatever degree, criticism. I mean, if results got Worse one would expect criticism to increase ?

I can’t remember who said it, but somebody said ( something like )“ when the facts/ circumstances change, I change my opinion, what do you do ?”

As someone who wanted him out based on his first 40 games, I’m more than happy to have him here based on his last 40. Whether I remain of that view will depend entirely upon what happens.......it wouldn’t stay the same regardless.

[terrytini]

27 minutes ago, villa89 said:

It's pretty obvious he didn't. We know Jack wanted to leave and he wasn't convinced to stay after a bid was accepted. He stayed because Spurs refused to meet the asking price. 

Can’t agree.

I don’t see how it’s “ obvious” either way.

There is only one person on the planet that knows for sure how much, or how little, a part Bruce played.

Could ve been nothing whatsoever to do with him, could’ve been a lot.

How can you know how much Jacks approach ( no fuss, no written transfer request, no sulk or hangover - if that’s what happens- ) was influenced by his relationship with Bruce ? On the other hand ( less likely in my view but just as unknown) how do we know he might not have been even more dead set Against a move if his relationship had been better....or pushed much more if it was worse.

Weve no idea. Ultimately it was a fee based outcome, but there’s always other elements.

But to @Stevo985 point it’s certainky true that, whilst some see no fault in Bruce no matter what, the balance is much further the other way on here in that he is far less likely to get credit where due from those who don’t want him/ don’t like him.

And that’s odd to me, because since he’s our Manager I’d always prefer to give him credit wherever possible, whatever I thought about him.

Edited August 10, 2018 by terrytini

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, terrytini said:

whilst I understand people can and will have issues, pretty much game by game ( that’s football) I can’t understand why the degree, level, and nature, of the criticism shoukd have stayed consistent. Surely a better points return warrants less, by whatever degree, criticism. I mean, if results got Worse one would expect criticism to increase ?

Kind of. I'd counter, though that Bruce's strengths, weaknesses, foibles and such like haven't changed a jot. The style of football, the er, approach taken has remained largely the same. There's little new been added to the debate, true. It's discussion of the same flaws and same strengths. Not al lthis thread is about criticsm either - when the team does better, there are more positve comments, and when it does badly, more negative ones. The essential nature of the criticism and praise is the same, because Bruce is the same.

[terrytini]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

Kind of. I'd counter, though that Bruce's strengths, weaknesses, foibles and such like haven't changed a jot. The style of football, the er, approach taken has remained largely the same. There's little new been added to the debate, true. It's discussion of the same flaws and same strengths. Not al lthis thread is about criticsm either - when the team does better, there are more positve comments, and when it does badly, more negative ones. The essential nature of the criticism and praise is the same, because Bruce is the same.

All fair points......but I’d still argue that it would make sense to me if the criticism of his “ strengths, weaknesses, foibles and such like” lessened as the outcome of those characteristics changed.

Seems odd to have the same level of criticism as mentioned by the OP if the results have improved ( and vice versa).

Edited August 10, 2018 by terrytini

[villan-scott]

Superbly pied James Nursey in the pre match presser!! Bruce let slip that Steer has gone on loan to Charlton, and said to Nursey ‘that’s a real exclusive, not the tittle tattle you’ve been writing’ or something similar

[blandy]

13 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I’d still argue that it would make sense to me if the criticism of his “ strengths, weaknesses, foibles and such like” lessened as the outcome of those characteristics changed.

Yeah, fair too. Though a counter would be that the hoped for outcome of a top 2 place, apart from about a week, never looked like being a likely outcome and didn't obviously happen, and that to my mind, one of the reasons for that was.... (no need to add to the tally of repeated criticisms,  everyone already knows why)

[terrytini]

He’s had 82 games...

First 41 games .... P 41/ W16/ D10/ L 15......For = 44.....Against = 45.......Points = 58........Goal difference = -1

Second 41 games P 41/ W23/ D7 / L 11.....For = 66......Against = 34........Points = 76.........Goal difference = + 32

Were those stats reversed I’d be shouting for him to be out from the rooftops.

But as they are, it’s why I find the OPs comments that it’s to be expected the “Outers” views remain unchanged to be odd.

Ah well....

I will take the next 41 games at exactly the level of the last 41, every day of the week.

[DaveAV1]

20 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I differ with you there. 

I actually find it odd that criticism remains the same as it was 2000, or even 500, pages ago. There is a marked contrast between our results ( objective) and - arguably - approach ( subjective) in the last 40 games compared to his first 40.

As such, whilst I understand people can and will have issues, pretty much game by game ( that’s football) I can’t understand why the degree, level, and nature, of the criticism shoukd have stayed consistent. Surely a better points return warrants less, by whatever degree, criticism. I mean, if results got Worse one would expect criticism to increase ?

I can’t remember who said it, but somebody said ( something like )“ when the facts/ circumstances change, I change my opinion, what do you do ?”

As someone who wanted him out based on his first 40 games, I’m more than happy to have him here based on his last 40. Whether I remain of that view will depend entirely upon what happens.......it wouldn’t stay the same regardless.

Hard to disagree with that Terry. I think that the level of criticism goes up and down with results and as you say, fans do change their views, but again those views are heavily weighted by results. 

Im hopeful with the momentum of new owners and keeping our best players we can build up a head of steam that puts us into a very strong position, so that this season we’re not playing catch up. It’s all in the mind. 

[Fairy In Boots]

2 minutes ago, terrytini said:

He’s had 82 games...

First 41 games .... P 41/ W16/ D10/ L 15......For = 44.....Against = 45.......Points = 58........Goal difference = -1

Second 41 games P 41/ W23/ D7 / L 11.....For = 66......Against = 34........Points = 76.........Goal difference = + 32

Were those stats reversed I’d be shouting for him to be out from the rooftops.

But as they are, it’s why I find the OPs comments that it’s to be expected the “Outers” views remain unchanged to be odd.

Ah well....

I will take the next 41 games at exactly the level of the last 41, every day of the week.

Good post as no fan of Bruce I can appreciate he’s improved our fortunes. My only issue is for the money spent the progression hasn’t been enough and there’s still no plan or style of play ingrained in the squad. 

If we’re going to carry on then do be it, I hope I’m wrong as I see the same as last year. Good enough to beat the chaff in this division and will get undone by the good sides like Leeds. I worry that won’t be enough to get us home to the PL. 

[terrytini]

14 minutes ago, villan-scott said:

Superbly pied James Nursey in the pre match presser!! Bruce let slip that Steer has gone on loan to Charlton, and said to Nursey ‘that’s a real exclusive, not the tittle tattle you’ve been writing’ or something similar

I’ve just watched it....brilliant.....not much trace of humour either, well done Bruce !

[Made In Aston]

55 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Lets all meet up on page 2000

Won't it be strange when we're all fully grown?

You have been wanting to say that for 1999 pages haven't you sid

[villabromsgrove]

On 08/08/2018 at 01:15, sheepyvillian said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting all out attack. But we need to be more purposeful and quicker of mind. We have to develop some identity to how we play and be confident in imposing that identity on our opponents. That's what impressed me most about Wolves last season, their confidence and belief. We had it, but it inexplicably deserted us, when we needed it most, maybe we thought it was a given and we just had to turn up, unfortunately, as we found to our cost, that attitude cost us. We have to find a style of play that builds momentum, and then maintain that momentum as consistently as possible. Only then will we move upwards. Fingers crossed.

Joe Bryan unwittingly highlighted this sentiment when he explained why he chose Fulham over Villa. He said he admired and understood Jokanovic's clearly defined attack orientated system, and he knew that the way they'd played over the last couple of seasons would make the best use of his particular talent. He knew he'd fit right in.

He obviously couldn't say the same about Villa, because after two years Steve Bruce is still scratching his head and trying to come up with a formation and system that will get the best out of our players.

In the end there wasn't much between Fulham and Villa last season points wise, but there was a gulf in class when you looked at the organisation of the football being played.  It came down to one team having a clearly defined plan, and the other team making it up as they went along.

I hope Bruce can get more out of our squad this season, by coaching a settled system that becomes our instinctive identity.

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

So I am really bored of this, as I am sure that everyone else is as well. 

The Bruce outers are sick of Bruce and the Bruce inners are sick of the outers being sick of Bruce. The Bruce outers are also sick of the Bruce Inners being sick of the outers being sick of Bruce etc.....

 

Not really true though.

I'm not sick of the Bruce Outers. I AM a Bruce outer.

I'm sick of the handful of posters who will criticise every last thing that the guy does.

And if he does anything good it's ignored or passed off as a coincidence or passed off as the minimum you should expect from a manager.

 

It makes any debate impossible.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

It's pretty obvious he didn't. We know Jack wanted to leave and he wasn't convinced to stay after a bid was accepted. He stayed because Spurs refused to meet the asking price. 

Of course it is 

[TheStagMan]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Not really true though.

I'm not sick of the Bruce Outers. I AM a Bruce outer.

I'm sick of the handful of posters who will criticise every last thing that the guy does.

And if he does anything good it's ignored or passed off as a coincidence or passed off as the minimum you should expect from a manager.

 

It makes any debate impossible.

OK, my bad. Sorry. lets all keep fighting then.  

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

So I am really bored of this, as I am sure that everyone else is as well. 

The Bruce outers are sick of Bruce and the Bruce inners are sick of the outers being sick of Bruce. The Bruce outers are also sick of the Bruce Inners being sick of the outers being sick of Bruce etc.....

 

Lets call a Truce, Bruce is here for the time being (and presumably as long as he keeps us in or around the top 2) so lets get behind the team and leave the criticism of Bruce and the digs at each other until we are losing games and dropping out of contention. We all know the arguments on both sides, lets stop having digs at each other and look forward to the coming season. We are all Villa fans after all. we have a new owner, we have had a very good window and may well still have some good loan signings coming in, Jack has stayed. All the ingredients are there. Let's enjoy the season. 

 

UTV

Totallly agree, time to be positive and to look forward now.

[omariqy]

He absolutely destroyed Nursey today. Bravo.