Steve Bruce

[TRO]

1 minute ago, dukes said:

Like I said it's total BS, but Villa fans criticising him for what he did in the past should be aware that he could just as easily leave us as he did Wigan, Crystal Palace and Hull (there may be others), he isn't bothered about having another job, has self belief (quite rightly) and at this moment in time we need him more than he probably needs us (despite him making all the right noises about the club and the job at hand).

 

There are many things to have a gripe about with nay manager, but his actions (and those of a referee) have no relevance on his ability to do this job, nor should any fan hold them against him.

If Bruce makes a hash of this job, where would we go next ? Whereas being honest most clubs in this division and a few in the Premier League would love to have him as their manager. Fans should wake up

He won't make a hash of this job.....my fear is it will take longer than I expected.

I don't think I had any idea of just what a mess the previous incumbent and his merry men managed to impose upon us.

It will take some time and much well spent funds to cure it.

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't mean this in a disrespectful manner in any way shape or form.

but I question all our abilities to appraise players.

my question is ( and it is not a loaded question aimed at any individual).... have we unintentionally lowered our own standards in appraising our players in order to show a brave and positive face.

I think you make an excellent point here and I agree that there are probably a fair few of us putting a brave face on things. I certainly think if I was to really think about it then I am.

That is what you do as a fan though isn’t it. If I was to critically analyse every player in the squad and came to the conclusion 80% of them were not good enough I doubt I’d have the will to attend the games anymore. Even last season I tried to find some good in some players.

I think this is what comes of a slow decline though isn’t it. Since 2010 we have been going backwards, pretty much bottomed out between 2011 and 2015 and then last season took the final dip and dropped. You look at that squad in 2010 and what we expected from players to the one we had last season and what we expected in terms of level of performance are miles apart. You almost become conditioned to watching crap, to players being out muscled, out paced, unable to read the game and unable to consistently keep the ball, to keepers making errors, wide men unable to cross a ball, forwards not intelligent enough to find space or finish chances.

It has gotten to the point now where I am regularly praising players for putting a shift in when that is the least that should be expected from any player at any level.

There is obviously still so much wrong with this squad and that is despite spending a fortune revamping it over the summer. I think there are some within it now though with enough about them to at least get us out of it. I think Chester and Baker are good players with good attitudes, Amavi is technically a good player but needs to be stronger at times, Jedinak is decent as long as you simply employ him to do what he is good at which is sitting in front of the back 4, Kodjia is a quality forward at this level, Grealish technically is head and shoulders above most at this level, Adomah is a 7 out of 10 player week in week out.

The rest though have either proven themselves over a sustained period to be not good enough, are way too inconsistent, or in terms of the likes of McCormack and Tshibola given the length of time they have been here the jury is still out.

The problems in the squad won’t be solved overnight though. I still think simply based on the standard of others in the division 3 or 4 signings in this window and we can still make the play offs. Or maybe that is me once again putting a brave face on things.

Edited January 9, 2017 by markavfc40

[Grasshopper]

Both Tro & Mark make excellent points.

I once went to a Business advisor for some consultation.

He didnt know me from Adam.

I laid out all my cards on the table and to my disappointment he said

No - not going to work.

I was pissed off to say the least.

The meeting ended pretty quickly and like this.

I gave him my address for the bill then wanted to leave

Then he told me some golden words I'll never forget.

"If you want to mix it with the best, you have to be the best and have the best"

AVFC have

Hutton Westwood Gardner & Gaby

Need I say more?

I think its safe to say the whole workings of the club pre-DrT had lowered its expectations and we are still suffering from the hangover.

Some "old" is still here. we have to get rid of it. We have to start getting in the best we can at all levels - that best not meaning messi - but best being better than what our competitors have.

DrT must bit the bullet.

Spend to get the best what we can.

Falling short in capable players will mean, falling short in getting results and missing the playoffs

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I think you make an excellent point here and I agree that there are probably a fair few of us putting a brave face on things. I certainly think if I was to really think about it then I am.

That is what you do as a fan though isn’t it. If I as to critically analyse every player in the squad and came to the conclusion 80% of them were not good enough I doubt I’d have the will to attend the games anymore. Even last season I tried to find some good in some players.

I think this is what comes of a slow decline though isn’t it. Since 2010 we have been going backwards, pretty much bottomed out between 2011 and 2015 and then last season took the final dip and dropped. You look at that squad in 2010 and what we expected from players to the one we had last season and what we expected in terms of level of performance are miles apart. You almost become conditioned to watching crap, to players being out muscled, out paced, unable to read the game and unable to consistently keep the ball, to keepers making errors, wide men unable to cross a ball, forwards not intelligent enough to find space or finish chances.

It has gotten to the point now where I am regularly praising players for putting a shift in when that is the least that should be expected from any player at any level.

There is obviously still so much wrong with this squad and that is despite spending a fortune revamping it over the summer. I think there are some within it now though with enough about them to at least get us out of it. I think Chester and Baker are good players with good attitudes, Amavi is technically a good player but needs to be stronger at times, Jedinak is decent as long as you simply employ him to do what he is good at which is sitting in front of the back 4, Kodjia is a quality forward at this level, Grealish technically is head and shoulders above most at this level, Adomah is a 7 out of 10 player week in week out.

The rest though have either proven themselves over a sustained period to be not good enough, are way too inconsistent, or in terms of the likes of McCormack and Tshibola given the length of time they have been here the jury is still out.

The problems in the squad won’t be solved overnight though. I still think simply based on the standard of others in the division 3 or 4 signings in this window and we can still make the play offs. Or maybe that is me once again putting a brave face on things.

What a refreshingly honest and eloquent post, Mark.....Totally agree.

sums my sentiments up entirely.....I am not so sure about Amavi Mark ,but hey ho.....paradoxically I do believe when a few of the right players come in others who we may have written off, come good.....I have seen that happen in the past.

I think the point of Watching crap, is what I was alluding to and it hurts to say that, but most of the pundits have settled on it now.....but they have encouragingly  all settled on Bruce is the right man for the job too.

I think the Goal keeper was very encouraging to me and I hope he keeps it up, Chester & Baker, I agree......Kodjia I like, but needs some quality help.....I still have a concern on Grealish.....Massive talent, but my god he goes down so easily and too often in my view......some is understandable, but some is petulant and unnecessary.

I watched Delle Alli come on and could not help comparing them, particularly as they seem to be good friends too......I was not foolish enough to be drawn to their football ability, because they are different players........but I was drawn to their body Language and the time and space Delle made for himself to avoid tackles, his decison making to release the ball to avoid getting caught in possession.....I know he is playing in a much better side, but that is what Jack needs to aspire to....playing with better players may help.

Edited January 9, 2017 by TRO

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Jack can't be Delle Ali though, he's not good enough. It's not fair to compare our players to the best young talent in the country. When you have that ability and you're riding the high of 6 goals in however short space of time, for one of the top 4 sides in the country, it's no wonder you're going to play with a bit more swagger. 

I agree with the general thrust of the thread at the moment. However I'd also say that sometimes players surprise you. Tish has barely played any football this season but he looked competent yesterday, who's to say that at 22 he won't develop into a much better player. Who knows, Gabby or McCormack might inexplicably start banging the goals in, perhaps next weekend. 

That's not so much 'putting a brave face on' it as much as it is having hope that eventually everything will click. It does for most clubs and we have a sound manager at the minute. Hope is a prerequisite of being a football fan, for me. 

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Both Tro & Mark make excellent points.

I once went to a Business advisor for some consultation.

He didnt know me from Adam.

I laid out all my cards on the table and to my disappointment he said

No - not going to work.

I was pissed off to say the least.

The meeting ended pretty quickly and like this.

I gave him my address for the bill then wanted to leave

Then he told me some golden words I'll never forget.

"If you want to mix it with the best, you have to be the best and have the best"

AVFC have

Hutton Westwood Gardner & Gaby

Need I say more?

I think its safe to say the whole workings of the club pre-DrT had lowered its expectations and we are still suffering from the hangover.

Some "old" is still here. we have to get rid of it. We have to start getting in the best we can at all levels - that best not meaning messi - but best being better than what our competitors have.

DrT must bit the bullet.

Spend to get the best what we can.

Falling short in capable players will mean, falling short in getting results and missing the playoffs

The problem is GH is what determines the best.....Its a very subjective statement.....But I am with you on the overall gist of your point.

We are still suffering from the hangover and we will for some time.....they all know it.......but we have to improve the effectiveness of the players we bring in.

That is not to say buying abroad, buying at home, moneyball, buying in the lower divisions is right or wrong...... but we must be sure of the characters and their abilities we are bringing in to blend a fighting machine.

This in my view will take longer than we all think and that is even if we proceed to make the right decisions, it will take even longer if we carry on as we have.

 

[gilbertoAVFC]

20 hours ago, VillaCas said:

I didn't want SB here and still think he is the wrong choice for us......however, I do have to take issue with most of your post

He's had 14 league games, so give the bloke a break. During that time, whilst taking over a massively unbalanced squad at rock-bottom confidence-wise he has found a way to deliver play-off form (only Newcastle, Brighton, Derby, Reading and Leeds have better points return during his 14 games)

Huddersfield who you are praising have delivered four points less than us since Bruce has been here

As regard the squad, he has inherited someone elses warped idea of what is required to progress in the championship. I'm sure Westwood, Gardner and Bacuna are not the choices he would like in his midfield but he needs to have shape and legs not just flair players

I don't agree that he is not picking his best players. I don't agree that Tshibola is a "dynamic ball-player", I don't agree that Ayew is doing enough to warrant a regualr starting spot (and perhaps tha fact that he is missing for a month might have something to do with why SB is looking for other options). I don't agree that the blame for (your view of) Jedinak and McCormack's fitness is Bruce's fault - he's been here 12 weeks. The kind of fitness you are talking about is built in pre-season and takes much much more time (Jedinak is unlikely to ever be much fitter than he is now imo)

I like Bruce as a bloke, but as I say I'm not a fan as a long term choice for us, however, the time for true judgement will be in a few months time once he's bought three or four in and has further chance to work with the squad.

It's hard to imagine what you expect if you are disappointed at progress so far

I find it incredible how narrative dictates things at Villa so easily. We were awful against Cardiff, poor against Leeds, negative against Burton and negative against Spurs. Bruce came in under "difficult circumstances" but really he didn't at all in comparison to say, Garde, who got no money and nowhere near as much patience after a similar time frame. Would Garde have done worse under these circumstances? I genuinely doubt it, but of course that is just my opinion.

I expect better when we have a higher net spend than Bayern, Real, Dortmund, Chelsea, Liverpool. We have been rubbish lately. Not saying he doesn't have time to sort it out, but I'm pretty underwhelmed and have been apart from the second half against Brighton.

Edited January 9, 2017 by gilbertoAVFC

[Grasshopper]

3 minutes ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

I find it incredible how narrative dictates things at Villa so easily. We were awful against Cardiff, poor against Leeds, negative against Burton and negative against Spurs. Bruce came in under "difficult circumstances" but really he didn't at all in comparison to say, Garde, who got no money and nowhere near as much patience after a similar time frame.

I expect better when we have a higher net spend than Bayern, Real, Dortmund, Chelsea, Liverpool. We have been rubbish lately.

WTF?

Garde had no help & not many points

Bruce hadnt had help yet but got us going on a par with the top teams already

[TRO]

51 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Jack can't be Delle Ali though, he's not good enough. It's not fair to compare our players to the best young talent in the country. When you have that ability and you're riding the high of 6 goals in however short space of time, for one of the top 4 sides in the country, it's no wonder you're going to play with a bit more swagger. 

I agree with the general thrust of the thread at the moment. However I'd also say that sometimes players surprise you. Tish has barely played any football this season but he looked competent yesterday, who's to say that at 22 he won't develop into a much better player. Who knows, Gabby or McCormack might inexplicably start banging the goals in, perhaps next weekend. 

That's not so much 'putting a brave face on' it as much as it is having hope that eventually everything will click. It does for most clubs and we have a sound manager at the minute. Hope is a prerequisite of being a football fan, for me. 

Dave, That is not the point I was making.....Right now your are right and of course he is playing in a better team so his work, comes off.

If Jack wanted to be as good as Delle Alli and set out to be.....I think he could......My doubt was in the mental makeup of the 2 of whether Jack wants it bad enough.... we can only hope he does.

I was merely pointing out what jack (or any other player) have to aspire to if they want to make it.

Dwight Yorke at one time when he first came on the scene...... could have been compared with say a top player of the day Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen or Teddy Sheringham....and could have had someone make a similar reference, not as good, can't be compared......but he went on the emulate them.....He wanted it.

Jack can do it , like Delle has.....and Jack is amongst the best young talent in the country, difference is they have applied themselves and Jack hasn't.....I accept playing with better players helps.....I'M sure SB and TX will help with that.

at the moment Jack is a circus act......but he could be the Ringmaster.

Edited January 9, 2017 by TRO

[gilbertoAVFC]

7 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

WTF?

Garde had no help & not many points

Bruce hadnt had help yet but got us going on a par with the top teams already

Garde inherited a bottom-level squad in comparison to the rest of the league and wasn't backed. People had given up on him by December.

Bruce inherited numerous top level Championship players and it's my belief he isn't getting the best out of them - far from it. People are saying "give him a window".

They are totally different circumstances and for that reason it was probably a poor point on my point for bringing Garde into it. I just think Bruce is getting a bit of a pass at the moment.

We should be doing better - that's my opinion. There are four positions where the side does not have at least one top 5 player in that position: GK, RB, DM/CM. Amavi, Chester, Elphick, Jedinak, McCormack, Ayew, Grealish, Kodjia would walk into every other side in the league apart from Newcastle and maybe Elphick would struggle to get into a top six defence.

[Grasshopper]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

The problem is GH is what determines the best.....Its a very subjective statement.....But I am with you on the overall gist of your point.

We are still suffering from the hangover and we will for some time.....they all know it.......but we have to improve the effectiveness of the players we bring in.

That is not to say buying abroad, buying at home, moneyball, buying in the lower divisions is right or wrong...... but we must be sure of the characters and their abilities we are bringing in to blend a fighting machine.

This in my view will take longer than we all think and that is even if we proceed to make the right decisions, it will take even longer if we carry on as we have.

 

my fear is the following analogy

An egg farmer has a stock of 25 laying him eggs

he sells his best egglayers off to buy egglayers that dont lay as many eggs

over time his egglayers produce less and less

the stock is diagnosed with low confidence (bad nutrition) and the cancer spreads throughout.

The farmer decides to sell up lock stock and barrel

The new buyer sees the problems and starts replacing his stock with new stock.

after a few months of mixing the old stock with the new, they too are infected and the egg output is not increased enough for the objectives.

What does the new owner do now?

Dilute the present stock over and over again till the cancer is eventually beaten (taking years)

or

Set up a new pen where only the "uninfected" and new stock along with a few maybe's who might be alright, then leave the infected in there own pen keeping them from infecting the "New" start?

I fear that we are playing a dangerous game that could cost us a lot of time & money.

Dear Dr T

        Please clear out ALL of the shit, whatever it costs.

Then

SPEND wisely

Grasshopper

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

I find it incredible how narrative dictates things at Villa so easily. We were awful against Cardiff, poor against Leeds, negative against Burton and negative against Spurs. Bruce came in under "difficult circumstances" but really he didn't at all in comparison to say, Garde, who got no money and nowhere near as much patience after a similar time frame. Would Garde have done worse under these circumstances? I genuinely doubt it, but of course that is just my opinion.

I expect better when we have a higher net spend than Bayern, Real, Dortmund, Chelsea, Liverpool. We have been rubbish lately. Not saying he doesn't have time to sort it out, but I'm pretty underwhelmed and have been apart from the second half against Brighton.

Are you factoring in the true level of demise that we managed to reach during this apocalypse of a period that Lerner presided over(Last 5 years of his reign).....The sheer scale of incompetency can only be compared with the 2008 Mortgage crash in the USA.....well a tad of Hyperbole there.....but to me it was as bad.

This Tsunami will take some clearing up.

[BOF]

@gilbertoAVFC

Better than 6th with no midfield?  Because we've been 6th in games since Bruce took over.  And yes he has had no window.  No chance to rectify the mistakes made by everyone before him but more immediately RDM (midfield).  And while the squad he took over undoubtedly has players who are stronger than many in the division, it is by virtue of that spend that we were one of the least settled squads, and we were 20th in the division once again struggling with confidence when he came in.  Bruce has done a very very good job since coming in.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

@gilbertoAVFC

Better than 6th with no midfield?  Because we've been 6th in games since Bruce took over.  And yes he has had no window.  No chance to rectify the mistakes made by everyone before him but more immediately RDM (midfield).  And while the squad he took over undoubtedly has players who are stronger than many in the division, it is by virtue of that spend that we were one of the least settled squads, and we were 20th in the division once again struggling with confidence when he came in.  Bruce has done a very very good job since coming in.

Its amazing to me how many posters have to write sensible offerings like this.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

my fear is the following analogy

An egg farmer has a stock of 25 laying him eggs

he sells his best egglayers off to buy egglayers that dont lay as many eggs

over time his egglayers produce less and less

the stock is diagnosed with low confidence (bad nutrition) and the cancer spreads throughout.

The farmer decides to sell up lock stock and barrel

The new buyer sees the problems and starts replacing his stock with new stock.

after a few months of mixing the old stock with the new, they too are infected and the egg output is not increased enough for the objectives.

What does the new owner do now?

Dilute the present stock over and over again till the cancer is eventually beaten (taking years)

or

Set up a new pen where only the "uninfected" and new stock along with a few maybe's who might be alright, then leave the infected in there own pen keeping them from infecting the "New" start?

I fear that we are playing a dangerous game that could cost us a lot of time & money.

Dear Dr T

        Please clear out ALL of the shit, whatever it costs.

Then

SPEND wisely

Grasshopper

You are one hell of an Analogy star.

The next time I am going to gesticulate at a player for playing Shite.....I'm gonna shout......" You Turkey"

and I will think of you GH

Ps We will come out of this......but, " I am not counting my chickens...........

Edited January 9, 2017 by TRO

[AntrimBlack]

36 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

my fear is the following analogy

An egg farmer has a stock of 25 laying him eggs

he sells his best egglayers off to buy egglayers that dont lay as many eggs

over time his egglayers produce less and less

the stock is diagnosed with low confidence (bad nutrition) and the cancer spreads throughout.

The farmer decides to sell up lock stock and barrel

The new buyer sees the problems and starts replacing his stock with new stock.

after a few months of mixing the old stock with the new, they too are infected and the egg output is not increased enough for the objectives.

What does the new owner do now?

Dilute the present stock over and over again till the cancer is eventually beaten (taking years)

or

Set up a new pen where only the "uninfected" and new stock along with a few maybe's who might be alright, then leave the infected in there own pen keeping them from infecting the "New" start?

I fear that we are playing a dangerous game that could cost us a lot of time & money.

Dear Dr T

        Please clear out ALL of the shit, whatever it costs.

Then

SPEND wisely

Grasshopper

I hate analogies. 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

I hate analogies. 

Its like a love-hate relationship

Oops

[TRO]

13 hours ago, ReasonforRevolution said:

We were looking good to win the league in 92/93 and Fergie time was implemented. He scored the headers against Sheffield Wednesday that cost us the league. Petty of me but it could of been so different. As I say I can't hold that against him and never will. I will support the team but I have bad memories of Bruce. From that game to celebrating that Enkleman mistake. I should let it go and that is my problem. The concern is I question his loyalty for this football club. 

They haven't got loyalty in the same way we have.

Its their job, they get success and the club grows on them. i.e Ron Saunders/Alex Ferguson/Arsene Wenger.....they never set out as fans of their respective clubs.

most players bang the drum for the clubs they have had the most success at.....not always, but generally so.

My Guess is Steve Bruce will eventually nail his colours to our mast.

[blandy]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

They haven't got loyalty in the same way we have.

Its their job, they get success and the club grows on them. i.e Ron Saunders/Alex Ferguson/Arsene Wenger.....they never set out as fans of their respective clubs.

most players bang the drum for the clubs they have had the most success at.....not always, but generally so.

My Guess is Steve Bruce will eventually nail his colours to our mast.

True. My guess is he'll be gone in 12 months one way or the other, and we'll not trouble his open thoughts too much.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

True. My guess is he'll be gone in 12 months one way or the other, and we'll not trouble his open thoughts too much.

Nah!