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No not sure it is worth noting as Chelsea aren't a competitor of ours in this division and conte did not join them at about the same time Bruce joined us with both teams on the same points. McLaren v Bruce does bear comparison and I'm surprised you feel that judging whether he is doing better or not is subjective given that points is all that matters his Derby have got more points than us in the same timescale so he is doing better.

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35 minutes ago, Richard said:

18 months ago in that time 13 have left and 12 arrived 

I admit that I don't know too much about Derby County and their squad, I agree that is a high turnover of players. I would guess that we must have had a similar turnover of players ourselves in the last couple of years if not more. The Slight difference being that McClaren would still know half the squad that is left, whereas Bruce I don't think has worked with many if any of our players before. Time will tell who does the best job, but there is not much in it at the moment in my eyes.

Edited by NeilS
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1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

Oh and over the last 10 games he has 3 more points than Bruce so even the difference in results is marginal, that's without even looking at the respective fixtures.

Their last win was 1-0 away at QPR.  They scored in the 86th minute and had 3 shots on target over the course of the game.

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On 18/12/2016 at 22:54, Woodytom said:

I saw that too. That was shite but not as bad as the Norwich performance. Again we showed some form of attempt to score and indeed did score.

Ones to rival Norwich that I've seen are....

Bolton 0-2 league cup.

Swansea away last season 

True but you also have to factor in the calibre of opposition we're playing...Bradford had ten two journeymen and Nakhi Wells....Norwich while underperforming currently were premier league last season and are stocked full of international players throughout their squad.

I just put the Norwich game down to our negative away tactics being nulified....in terms of worst performance I honestly don't think it would come in the worst 50 games I've seen, there were 20 for a start last season. Just look at some of our cup exits in the last 5 years.

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11 hours ago, NeilS said:

I admit that I don't know too much about Derby County and their squad, I agree that is a high turnover of players. I would guess that we must have had a similar turnover of players ourselves in the last couple of years if not more. The Slight difference being that McClaren would still know half the squad that is left, whereas Bruce I don't think has worked with many if any of our players before. Time will tell who does the best job, but there is not much in it at the moment in my eyes.

Last couple of years? We did that in the summer

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I like Bruce and we should stick with him. I hated Sherwood but gave him a chance, so I would like others who are unsure about Bruce to just see what happens. We've just been relegated and have a number of losers in the team, give him chance to fix that and if we don't progress then we move on - but at least give him a reasonable amount of time to fix the damage done by the previous Chairman and managers.

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Management is a lot about being in the right place at the right, the planets aligning so to speak. My gut feeling is that Bruce under Xia will be a great combo, Steve knows what's required to get out of this league (upwards, obviously!) and Tony is the guy to back him.

Hang on for the ride to greatness, peeps.

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On 18/12/2016 at 22:57, villarocker said:

The football since Bruce arrived has largely been unimpressive and so I believe that he's going to suffer the same as MON, in that fans will be divided because of the standard of football we are playing, even if it wins more than we lose. 

The football isn't pretty but we're winning more than losing and still on an upward curve. Also, we have to remember that Bruce has been here for less games than RDM and is working with other managers' signings. We need to at least give him the chance to see what football we produce when we has brought in his own players. As long as we keep up the points to games ratio he's got here I'll be happy. 

For me SB is a top-end championship / bottom end Premiership manager.  On his appointment there seemed to be two schools of thought - some were enthusiastically in favour with the view that if he could get us out of the championship we could address his limitations then. I was in the second camp who was against his appointment and wanted someone, perhaps less experienced but with more potential

On the face of it the first scenario is the safe one and the second scenario a riskier one, however, if our ambition is to be more than a yo-yo club I think that we needed to take that risk. Let's imagine that SB does get us up this season - he will be (rightly) hailed as a hero and there would be no appetite or fair reason to look to replace him. Money will be spent and we will sign the kind of workmanlike player that SB always signs. We will struggle around the lower end of the table until we get relegated or SB is replaced. We will then be in another of our endless transition phases and the whole sorry cycle will begin again

I've no problem with Bruce as a person - he's a good guy and so far, he has come in and done well (as we probably expected him to). I don't think he has done anything exceptional, given the amount of money spent, even our unbalanced side should really be one of the top championship sides - it was very poor management by RDM that was the cause of our problems.

It's early days and SB has not yet had the opportunity to shape the squad so criticism must be tempered massively, but we are being extremely fortunate and in the main relying on individual moments of good play. Performances in the main have been quite poor. People will say that results are all that matter and at the moment that is quite right but soon we will be looking for more and I'm concerned that SB's style of play will not deliver

To clarify, Bruce needs to be given time to bring players in and shape his own style but I worry now that when he does many will be extremely disappointed

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I like Bruce. He isn't going to get us playing sexy football but that's not what this league requires. We will pick up a good amount of points this season under him and have a real go at the play offs next year. I can't believe he is getting criticism tbh, especially after the disastrous RDM reign.

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11 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

So was there a point?

Of course and before I explain let me just say VillaCas that was an excellent post really one of the best on this site in the last few weeks.

no to address the point of my comparison to mcclaren , there seems to be a current perceived norm or accepted wisdom on here which is made up of one , some or all of the following views;

its all about points nothing more

its not his squad so we can't expect much

hard to see what more he could have done

based on that he's doing a brilliant job.

 

Now my point was to show that a decent comparison is mcclaren at Derby . He came in at about the same time with them on the same points as us. He inherited a squad , which despite protestations on here, was not his own, he left them 18 months ago and there have been many many changes in the team since then and in the 11 games since has taken 5 more points than we have and sit just one point behind the play off positions. So basically , especially if it is all about points, maybe he isn't doing as well as people are saying.  Just to temper the enthusiasm a bit and bring a touch of realism to the argument . 

Now no doubt there will be someone to come and counter this view and it will get a load of likes blah blah blah. That's fine, this is my view I do not think he is doing as well as some are suggesting , I do believe he deserves some criticism for things and I do not think that some of the bad decisions should be excused merely because it is Bruce that has made them. For example and not exclusively but selecting agbonlahor consistently which, in my opinion, is getting a lot of defence because it is Bruce that made that decision people are saying they can see why which I doubt they would be able to if it was a different manager making the decision. And that is just an example it is not the whole point so I do not want people to fixate on that element of what I have just posted

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Richard, I think people would respect your view more and not just dismiss it offhand if you represented it as well-reasoned as you did there.

Instead, you choose to make deliberately hyperbolic statements like 'very, very poor' after an away win. People will be turned off by that and refuse to engage you even when you present a reasoned argument afterwards.

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14 minutes ago, Richard said:

For example and not exclusively but selecting agbonlahor consistently which, in my opinion, is getting a lot of defence because it is Bruce that made that decision people are saying they can see why which I doubt they would be able to if it was a different manager making the decision. And that is just an example it is not the whole point so I do not want people to fixate on that element of what I have just posted

So what elements can I 'fixate' on? Because I, personally, completely disagree with that. If Wagner or whoever had come in and done the same thing having gotten the same results my feelings would be exactly the same about it and every other decision he made, right and wrong.  

I have ZERO predisposition to 'liking' Steve Bruce, regardless of whether I wanted him as manager or not. That's an utterly baseless thing to suggest and you have no evidence for it other than an insatiable desire, like many on this forum, to put others in neatly defined boxes. 

If you defend a decision the manager has made, you must love the manager unconditionally. If you say 'x player' has had a good game, you must be an 'x player' fanboy. It's total **** bollocks Richard. Sorry. Maybe some people are that way, but it's not up to you to decide that everyone is the same. That's not how this works. 

Edit - Nobody 'like' this post please, I don't want Richard to get a complex. 

Edited by dont_do_it_doug.
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12 minutes ago, Richard said:

Now no doubt there will be someone to come and counter this view and it will get a load of likes blah blah blah

posts usually get loads of likes when they are well put rebuttals of over the top ridiculousness, to be honest. You paint 'likes' here as some sort of political agenda against you.

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25 minutes ago, Richard said:

Of course and before I explain let me just say VillaCas that was an excellent post really one of the best on this site in the last few weeks.

no to address the point of my comparison to mcclaren , there seems to be a current perceived norm or accepted wisdom on here which is made up of one , some or all of the following views;

its all about points nothing more

Considering where we are right now as a club and considering Bruce can only work with what he has, it is all about points.

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its not his squad so we can't expect much

You saw how bad RDM did with this squad and how other managers before him did with the players we had and still have, right? Our midfield in particular is absolutely terrible, so no, I think it's perfectly rational to give him a pass on this until he brings in some of his own players.

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hard to see what more he could have done

He's been here a few months and has got us winning games and seeing them out using the same squad of players as RDM. Seriously, what are your expectations? That in a matter of weeks with a proper manager we'd win every single week playing beautiful football? You over-estimate our squad's ability and their confidence.

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based on that he's doing a brilliant job.

He is. I can't understand how any Villa fan who has endured the last few years of utterly depressing football and the results that come along with them can think otherwise.

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Now my point was to show that a decent comparison is mcclaren at Derby . He came in at about the same time with them on the same points as us. He inherited a squad , which despite protestations on here, was not his own, he left them 18 months ago and there have been many many changes in the team since then and in the 11 games since has taken 5 more points than we have and sit just one point behind the play off positions. So basically , especially if it is all about points, maybe he isn't doing as well as people are saying.  Just to temper the enthusiasm a bit and bring a touch of realism to the argument .

There is no point. He's a few points ahead of us. Maybe in a month's time we'll be a few points ahead of Derby. Both are doing good jobs with their respective teams.

Quote

Now no doubt there will be someone to come and counter this view and it will get a load of likes blah blah blah. That's fine, this is my view I do not think he is doing as well as some are suggesting , I do believe he deserves some criticism for things and I do not think that some of the bad decisions should be excused merely because it is Bruce that has made them. For example and not exclusively but selecting agbonlahor consistently which, in my opinion, is getting a lot of defence because it is Bruce that made that decision people are saying they can see why which I doubt they would be able to if it was a different manager making the decision. And that is just an example it is not the whole point so I do not want people to fixate on that element of what I have just posted

I don't think even the staunchest of supporters who think Bruce is doing a great job will say he hasn't been without his mistakes here and there, but what do you expect? Ask a bunch of Derby fans about your man McClaren and I'm sure they'll say he's made a few mistakes at Derby too.

As for Gabby, a lot of people, including myself, aren't totally enamoured with that either, but I'm not a professional football coach. I've never got any team promoted from the Championship. I'm not saying that makes my opinion or indeed any Villa fan's opinion invalid, just that we are not experienced in this field, nor are we privy to the inner workings of the club. All we can see is that we're winning more games and that's enough for us right now. So yes, currently it is all about the points.

Edited by Ginko
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