Steve Bruce

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Yes, really. The issue for me (and many others, based on their posts). Its the different between feeling we lost a game due to bad luck vs feeling that we won due to good luck. 

In the former scenario the mindset is that wins are the normality and the latter (where we are) that failing to win is the normality, so are more worried when we don't.

I don't think our run earlier in the season was due to good luck. We kept it pretty tight at the back and managed to penetrate the opposition defence. Both of those things have stopped happening in recent weeks.

Can't believe the love for Dean Smith - who has the players brought for him at Brentford , and more part of a management team - they sit 4 points below us , and have conceded 32 goals - hell as poor as we were the other night we even scored one !  

[srsmithusa]

5 hours ago, Rob182 said:

Haha no worries, I just saw you replying to someone else after I'd tagged you, so thought you might have missed it  I hope your granddaughter enjoyed the movie! 

 

So if you backed off from the Bruce Out stance following our good spell, when have you officially moved back into the Bruce Out stance now? That's what I'm interested in. Was it the last loss that pushed you back into the 'Bruce Out' camp, or was it the loss before that against Derby?

 

The reason I ask, is that I haven't been 100% Bruce In for his time here, and I'll explain why. Like a lot of people, I too thought 'this isn't good enough' when we had that dreadful spell last February, but I felt that pulling the trigger then was a bit too soon, considering that Bruce hadn't had a pre-season and had only had the January window (which is notoriously difficult to do business in, and aside from Hogan, many of our signings were cheap). Then we had our poor start to THIS season. But, again, from what I would consider to be a 'level-headed' view, it didn't seem right to sack him 2 months into the new season, after giving him another transfer window and a pre-season of training. Of course, we could have sacked him and a new manager could have improved us massively - OR - a new manager could have had the same problems that Bruce did last year, and once again we would be looking to the next season, when the new man could have a pre-season and a summer transfer window.

 

In November when we had won 9 out of the last 12 Championship games, it seemed like it was the right decision to keep Bruce, as we had climbed into a healthy position and were definitely looking up instead of down. It's only since the draw against Leeds that we've done terribly. Before that, I'd say we've been 'below average', but still managing to scrape wins and slowly climb up the table. I'm at the point now, where if we don't get back up into the play-off places quickly (ie: in the next two games), then I'll want him gone. Not because play-offs is acceptable, but because by gambling with a change of manager, we could go backwards, and I think that Bruce does have the knack of pulling out a run of wins from no-where.

 

I had a look at Hull's results in the 2015/16 season that Bruce got them promoted. They had a much better start to the season than we've had this year, but then after that, there are definite similarities in the form. Bruce had a couple of bad spells with them too, losing 4 out of 7 between gameweeks 18-24, before winning 4 on the bounce. Then again, another poor spell from gameweeks 33-40: DLDDLWLD. Yet they still finished in the play-off places and got promoted. While he still has a chance of getting us up (by which, I mean that we're sat safely in the play-off places), I'll (reluctantly) hold off calling for his head.

I honestly don’t remember when I turned back again, but it was before the full slide hit.    Your analysis is fine, but you focus on points.  It sounds like I factored in the way he managed the team.   Truth be told, it doesn’t appear that he manages at all.  It appears that he picks the line-up and the subs.   He doesn’t seem to plan a coherent match strategy, make adjustments, all the slow and timid things I and others have harped on ad nauseum.  You’ve seen my understanding of “the villa curse”. Bruce isn’t stopping it and sticking with him is feeding it.  All IMO of course.  

Edited December 29, 2017 by srsmithusa

[AshVilla]

I wonder how many more poor performances it's going to take for Bruce to be given the bullet.

 

[sne]

1 minute ago, AshVilla said:

I wonder how many more poor performances it's going to take for Bruce to be given the bullet.

 

Every draw gets him 2 or 3 more games, every win gets him another 5 or so. I imagine.

As long as he picks up the odd point in the coming weeks he'll remain at least until we are mathematically out of the promotion race IMO.

Hopefully Xia has other plans.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 minutes ago, sne said:

Every draw gets him 2 or 3 more games, every win gets him another 5 or so. I imagine.

As long as he picks up the odd point in the coming weeks he'll remain at least until we are mathematically out of the promotion race IMO.

Hopefully Xia has other plans.

 

This is the problem, he literally does a little less than the bare minimum to keep showing glimmers of hope and false dawn.

Frustrating.

[hippo]

8 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

I wonder how many more poor performances it's going to take for Bruce to be given the bullet.

 

performances or results ? 

2 defeats in the next 2 and he's a goner in my book. Needs to win one of those - personally I think Bristol City is a very winnable game. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

Or if the fans of those clubs basically blame the players and feel the managers doing a fine job. 

Yeah because that's what fans are saying!! I doubt there's a Villa fan alive that thinks Bruce is doing a fine job. 

 Plus It's Bruce that signed most of these players so if they are crap then Bruce should go for signing them. 

Edit: I've said many times that my posts about the players being average are not a defence of Bruce. I want him gone.

Yet it appears unless you are blaming him for literally everything wrong with the team it means you think he is doing 'a fine job'.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Vive_La_Villa

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, sne said:

Huddersfield did it last season under Wagner.

Weills had 10 and Kachunga had 12

Adomah already has 11 for us this season, but then again he's not a striker.

Double figures is respectful for a striker. Especially if 2 of them achieve it. 

We haven't got a chance in hell of promotion under any manager unless we can get a striker in January. 

We can't keep relying on Adomah for goals.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Yeah because that's what fans are saying!! I doubt there's a Villa fan alive that thinks Bruce is doing a fine job. 

 Plus It's Bruce that signed most of these players so if they are crap then Bruce should go for signing them. 

Edit: I've said many times that my posts about the players being average are not a defence of Bruce. I want him gone.

Yet it appears unless you are blaming him for literally everything wrong with the team it means you think he is doing 'a fine job'.

Get onto the Facebook pages and prepare to have your mind blown then.

Everything from

"The fans don't support the team and it gets them nervous and causes them to under perform, you only have yourselves to blame, support the **** team"

"We are lucky to have Bruce as Manager, we would probably be going down again without him"

to "He is doing a brilliant job with no money to spend" to

"I feel for Bruce, the players just are not good enough"

"We are only X points off 2nd" to

"We are in the playoffs " to

" We are only x points off the playoffs"

and now my personal inevitable favorite "We are not ready to go up anyway, we need a rebuild over 3 - 5 years and Bruce can bring that stability to take us where we need to be in time"

Edited December 29, 2017 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Get onto the Facebook pages and prepare to have your mind blown then.

Everything from

"The fans don't support the team and it gets them nervous and causes them to under perform, you only have yourselves to blame, support the **** team"

"We are luck y to have Bruce as Manager, we would probably be going down again without him"

to "He is doing a brilliant job with no money to spend" to

"I feel for Bruce, the players just are not good enough"

"We are only X points off 2nd" to

"We are in the playoffs " to

" We are only x points off the playoffs"

and now my personal inevitable favorite "We are not ready to go up anyway, we need a rebuild over 3 - 5 years and Bruce can bring that stability to take us where we need to be in time"

Wow I take it back then. I guess he does have his fans.

I suppose everyone entitled to their opinion suprising as they are. 

The scary thing is some of them views might even be true. 

[srsmithusa]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Wow I take it back then. I guess he does have his fans.

I suppose everyone entitled to their opinion suprising as they are. 

The scary thing is some of them views might even be true. 

TRO has to do something in his spare time.  

[Darth Villa]

17 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Get onto the Facebook pages and prepare to have your mind blown then.

Everything from

"The fans don't support the team and it gets them nervous and causes them to under perform, you only have yourselves to blame, support the **** team"

"We are luck y to have Bruce as Manager, we would probably be going down again without him"

to "He is doing a brilliant job with no money to spend" to

"I feel for Bruce, the players just are not good enough"

"We are only X points off 2nd" to

"We are in the playoffs " to

" We are only x points off the playoffs"

and now my personal inevitable favorite "We are not ready to go up anyway, we need a rebuild over 3 - 5 years and Bruce can bring that stability to take us where we need to be in time"

That's either Christmas cheer going too far or views from a parallel universe, as surely nobody can believe that crap?

[Zatman]

Only 3 teams havent won in December and thats us, Blues and Barnsley

[AvfcRigo82]

38 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Get onto the Facebook pages and prepare to have your mind blown then.

Everything from

"The fans don't support the team and it gets them nervous and causes them to under perform, you only have yourselves to blame, support the **** team"

"We are luck y to have Bruce as Manager, we would probably be going down again without him"

to "He is doing a brilliant job with no money to spend" to

"I feel for Bruce, the players just are not good enough"

"We are only X points off 2nd" to

"We are in the playoffs " to

" We are only x points off the playoffs"

and now my personal inevitable favorite "We are not ready to go up anyway, we need a rebuild over 3 - 5 years and Bruce can bring that stability to take us where we need to be in time"

It becomes more laughable the more you read about it and our downward spiral and what is become acceptable!

Shall we give it till end of Feb and our standards will be that we have done a great job in avoiding relegation?  

[Heretic]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

Can't believe the love for Dean Smith - who has the players brought for him at Brentford , and more part of a management team - they sit 4 points below us , and have conceded 32 goals - hell as poor as we were the other night we even scored one !  

We've spent more in the Championship than Brentford have in their history.

If we adjusted budgets to compare, we'd probably be a League Two side given how poor the decisions have been. We've bought our way out of major trouble.

That isn't to say Dean Smith isn't the right man, but too many on here compare the clubs and don't factor the budgets.

Given our financial muscle compared to others, the club's performance is frankly embarrassing. Other clubs' fans would skip for joy at the prospect of spending like we have. We're a giant club in this division and way behind Bristol City.

£5m to many clubs in this division is a massive sum. It's Burton's turnover. Look at the players we've got costing that (or would cost that if we hadn't got them close to contract expiry, e.g. Hourihane).

Again, maybe Dean Smith isn't the guy. But comparatively, he's doing a much better job than Steve Bruce - as are many managers in this division.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Heretic

[dn1982]

3 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok fair points. Yet no striker. How on earth does a team get automatic promotion without a decent striker? No manager has ever achieved that. 

Yet we’ve got 3 on our books who’ve scored loads in this division and another Bruce said is the best in the division when fit. Our strikers don’t miss chance so as we don’t create yet weve got a few of last seasons most creative st the club. Bruce is supposedly a good man manager yet the only people he seems to manage well is the press. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Yet we’ve got 3 on our books who’ve scored loads in this division and another Bruce said is the best in the division when fit. Our strikers don’t miss chance so as we don’t create yet weve got a few of last seasons most creative st the club. Bruce is supposedly a good man manager yet the only people he seems to manage well is the press. 

Well one is injured, the other is on the other side of the world and the third is just an average player that had a decent run and got a big move out of it. 

Im not going to even comment on the fourth.

My point is Bruce or no Bruce there is no chance of promotion with the current striker situation at this current time.  Surely that's something we can all agree on.

[TRO]

19 hours ago, terrytini said:

What’s weak about it ? I’m just giving my view on your query as to if it’s the coaching how come we’ve occassionally played well. My view is simply that it’s bound to have happened a couple of times .

Why is that weak ?

Personally I think your deduction that if the coaching was a problem we would never win a game makes no sense.

There are countless examples where poor teams , relegated teams, poor players, poorly managed teams, give a decent performance or two.

I would raise the opposite point. If the coaching isn’t negative and poor how come I’ve only seen a handful (/at best) of even decent performances in 50 odd games ?

Youve said for 15 months it’s the players.

All these different players, players already here, players he’s bought in, International players, experienced players, players with good records in this League. Everything except the obvious conclusion - as experienced by fans at other Clubs he’s managed.

I think the evidence is crystal clear and has been for ages, and really wonder why some have taken so long to see it.

Still weak ?

I think you missed the point.....the thing about the clock was weak IMO.....sorry mate.

• You could be right about the coaching, but have you considered, you could be wrong, it could be the inconsistency of the players....maybe the majority are not as good as we think, I would possibly keep about 5 and one of those is only short term anyway and another on loan.....and yes that is down to the manager.....He said he was going to bring in players better than we already have that its been a problem of the past, it hasn't happened IMO
• Terry, I accept its a difference of opinion and please do not interpret this as me trying to get SB off the hook, because I am not.....If I was sure i would say get rid.....and equally am not saying you are wrong, I simply don't know.....There is a problem, we do know that, The manager has to take responsibility for it, we do know that......where the fault actually lies, I think is anything but clear.
• There are so many arguments put forward for and against him....and they are all feasible....we have had many players ( maybe we have bought badly) we have had many managers ( maybe we have recruited badly) we have oodles of coaches not just these present ones( maybe we have appointed them badly) its not crystal clear at all.
• We have no idea the next manager will fix all the things we see, maybe he will, but maybe  we regress in other things, who knows. and the whole is different but no better.

I do think if he loses the next 2 he will have to come up with some special presentation to keep his job as I think he will go, whether its right or not.

FWIW I am unsure if RDM was the problem, but after dropping so many points, there was no choice and the same will happen with Bruce.

but just remember, there is a subtle difference between who is responsible and who is at fault.

Ps I don't care if he does go as long as it has no detrimental affect on our football club.....If you are sure, then fine, I am not as certain as you, but HeyHo!

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

23 hours ago, peterms said:

Yes, I agree.  Declaring a grand world view is nonsense.   (As an aside,  there's a good management writer called Henry Mintzberg who discusses how the grand plans of companies like Shell turn out to be pompous nonsense, and what successful companies do in practice is pursue what he calls "emergent strategy", ie adjust and adapt to what's happening in the real world).

Our owners did of course declare a grand world view about being in the top 5 or 10 clubs worldwide or something similarly embarrassing to recount, but that's another story.

My point is more that there was a simple but crucial strategic choice to be made, a year ago: plan short term or long term and appoint and buy accordingly.  Xia chose short term, I think long term would have been better.

Yes, that's not what managers do.  They implement the strategic approach dictated to them,  for example "develop the academy, bring players through, stay in this league until we are in a position to spend for a promotion challenge", or perhaps "do what it takes to get promoted this year, don't worry about the money for one season at least", or maybe "I know I said there would be transfer funds, but I didn't think so much would be needed, and I have a divorce settlement, and...oh, right, seeya Martin".

Managers might declare something about the style of play they want to encourage.   That would be in keeping with their remit, would be interesting and engaging, and might also generate some support.

From the interesting posts our friend James has contributed,  I'd say Bristol are currently ahead of us both on broad strategy and also managerial implementation, dsspite their relatively limited resources.

But Pete there is also a danger, that you follow your experiences of the past, you have the right pegs in the right holes, it all comes together and starting winning most of your games and when asked by some high fallooting journalist, with shoot magazine( or such like) sticking out of his bag......asking what is the blueprint or roadmap you have been working to.

I have seen it many times in commerce......they call it pro active management in some circles.....in others its called theoretical BS.

I have no fixed agenda either way......I accept Pepe is probably the best in the world so naturally everyone defaults to him and his methods......then there is another bunch deemed  Dinosaurs.....not really sure what that means, but suspect that I know what they are referring to.

Perhaps the Bayern fans were saying the same about us in 1982, when in actual fact they had some of the best players in Europe ( but still lost).

Its pretty clear to me if you have the players, you play like Man City or Barca......If you don't, you have to find ways and means of winning games, managers get branded on how they do that...I get that.

It is very difficult for me to give an alternative view......when I absolutely detest what I am seeing at present.

Ps I have always thought, if its hard, you are not doing it right.....successful people find what they do easy in the main.......We are making much too hard work of it.

Edited December 29, 2017 by TRO

[dn1982]

27 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Well one is injured, the other is on the other side of the world and the third is just an average player that had a decent run and got a big move out of it. 

Im not going to even comment on the fourth.

My point is Bruce or no Bruce there is no chance of promotion with the current striker situation at this current time.  Surely that's something we can all agree on.

My point is Bruce got us into this mess.