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I'm really starting to question if Bruce actually believed he could get us up in the first place. In nearly every interview at the start of the season he said "we will be there or thereabouts"

At first I thought he was just using a figure of speech as it was clear our target was promotion - and automatic promotion at that (considering how expensive this squad was to assemble).

Now it occurs to me perhaps he knew all along that he was't capable hence continually branding the term "thereabouts" so he can subconsciously get everyones expectations down a bit. 

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10 minutes ago, peterms said:

On the point about taking responsibility, I was struck by this comment in his latest interview:

He makes it sound like some unfortunate mishap of which he is the innocent victim, like having an outbreak of aphids in his garden or dry rot in his attic or something.  He doesn't seem to view himself as responsible for the team, the style of play, and the outcome.

I understand all of that and trust me, i am not arguing the point.....but don't be too surprised if we change manager and after a while, find ourselves back here again.

many things need to change.....we have tried to fast track our way out of a major demise and it isn't working.

Prior to Ron Saunders, we did the very same for years and years.....what changed was Tony Barton along with Ron spotted talent that was hungry and up and coming and blended them in to a unit that had contrast individually but came together as a team.

We are a bunch of disjointed individuals who are struggling to make any kind of cohesive impact on the game.....they don't work for each other, just panic their way through a game by clearing lines and booting their way out of pressure.

Its a combination of many,many things......but it is painful to watch.

ps we just have a few players who are masking over a much bigger problem.

Edited by TRO
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3 minutes ago, Junxs said:

I'm really starting to question if Bruce actually believed he could get us up in the first place. In nearly every interview at the start of the season he said "we will be there or thereabouts"

At first I thought he was just using a figure of speech as it was clear our target was promotion - and automatic promotion at that (considering how expensive this squad was to assemble).

Now it occurs to me perhaps he knew all along that he was't capable hence continually branding the term "thereabouts" so he can subconsciously get everyones expectations down a bit. 

I don't think that is a legitimate reason for criticism.....Pepe didn't come out and say he would win the league on day one......a bit of humility is still an important ingredient in any campaign.

So Lee Hendrie reckons the coaching is ok.....He might be right.

I have no idea for sure what is wrong it could be many ,many things.

what i do know is......we cannot continue dishing up that dog ****.

When you get Onomah creating a fine header and then defending a corner like he has never played before......I am not sure what to say.

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8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I understand all of that and trust me, i am not arguing the point.....but don't be too surprised if we change manager and after a while, find ourselves back here again.

many things need to change.....we have tried to fast track our way out of a major demise and it isn't working.

Prior to Ron Saunders, we did the very same for years and years.....what changed was Tony Barton along with Ron spotted talent that was hungry and up and coming and blended them in to a unit that had contrast individually but came together as a team.

We are a bunch of disjointed individuals who are struggling to make any kind of cohesive impact on the game.....they don't work for each other, just panic their way through a game by clearing lines and booting their way out of pressure.

Its a combination of many,many things......but it is painful to watch.

ps we just have a few players who are masking over a much bigger problem.

That's the thing though, isn't it - as the manager, it is his job to sort this out. he hasn't, and seems surprised it is still happening. Has to go. "the players are s**t" or "the players aren't performing" are the things HE is responsible for fixing - get some that aren't s**t (these are mostly his signings) and make the one's who aren't performing, perform and if they don't, then stop bloody playing them.

 

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53 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Why???

Has this not been answered 500 times already? Or is it blind faith that still begs the question?

Blind faith? In Wyness? What are you on about?

I don't give two shits about Keith Wyness. I don't really know what his job entails and neither do most of us on VT. But like most things on here if things aren't going well on the pitch then posters blame absolutely everyone at the club.

I was just asking why people feel Wyness is doing such a bad job. Maybe it has been explained before, I don't read every single post on VT. 

I didn't think it was so outrageous to ask.

 

My opinion is that the one real thing I know Wyness had responsibility over was appointing RDM's successor. In Steve Bruce he made a pretty good choice (at the time) that most people agreed with. Whilst that hasn't turned out well, I'm not sure that's justification for calling for Wyness to be sacked. The appointment of Mourinho at Man Utd isn't going too well either but does that justify sacking whoever's decision that was at Man Utd? Probably not because the appointment made sense at the time.

It may well be that there's a tonne more stuff that DOES justify calling for Wyness to be sacked and I just don't know about it. That's why I was asking.

 

 

On a side note, there seems to be a real trend in this thread lately where if someone asks a question they get absolutely ridiculed for it, yet never actually get an answer. What is with that?

Edited by Stevo985
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Fair enough the appointment of Bruce may have seemed a fair one at the time but I’d like wyness to hold his hands up and accept it hasn’t work and take action by removing Bruce rather than continually backing him - this is probably the 3rd time Bruce has been lucky to survive the axe at villa , they were swift to remove rdm but seem extremely reluctant to do so with Bruce - surely the tipping point has been reached .

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Just now, Eastie said:

Fair enough the appointment of Bruce may have seemed a fair one at the time but I’d like wyness to hold his hands up and accept it hasn’t work and take action by removing Bruce rather than continually backing him - this is probably the 3rd time Bruce has been lucky to survive the axe at villa , they were swift to remove rdm but seem extremely reluctant to do so with Bruce - surely the tipping point has been reached .

I think we have reached that tipping point too.

But like I said before, if it wasn't for the past 6 weeks or less, then Wyness' decision to keep Bruce would seem more or less justified. Yes we could have been doing better but we still seemed to be on course to be challenging for promotion under Bruce.

It's fine lines. And I agree Wyness should now take responsibility and Bruce should be sacked. But I'm just not sure I agree that the guy should be sacked for this.

Like I said, I'm happy to be educated on why Wyness should go.

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1 hour ago, TRO said:

But Terry, why are they not top of the league.....because they can't defend in comparison, to their offensive capability.

To get out of this league, you have to be able to do both. 

I understand the constraints Dean Smith has, but that does not automatically mean, with money, he will be better.....it doesn't always work like that.I am not sure he is right for us.

 

I agree mate, but you cant underestimate the difference in budgets and the contraints Dean has to work under. 

Its easy to say 'well Brentford are 12th, hardly pulling up trees' ( i know you've not said that), but when you consider those restraints (like losing his best player who Bruce can't get tune from), and then consider that they are only 4 points behind us, you would have to conclude that he is doing a fabulous job. 

I also think being a villa fan would give him, and us a distict advantage. Not because of some (Newcastle like) fairy tale notion of "understanding the club", i just think that the fanbase has been fragmented for years now, a villa fan at the helm would i think, unite the fans behind him and would give Dean himself a little more time to implement his ideas. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I think we have reached that tipping point too.

But like I said before, if it wasn't for the past 6 weeks or less, then Wyness' decision to keep Bruce would seem more or less justified. Yes we could have been doing better but we still seemed to be on course to be challenging for promotion under Bruce.

It's fine lines. And I agree Wyness should now take responsibility and Bruce should be sacked. But I'm just not sure I agree that the guy should be sacked for this.

Like I said, I'm happy to be educated on why Wyness should go.

Because he has failed. We've spent an absolute fortune, had two managers and will probably end up still in this league with a squad that will be torn apart and need massive rebuilding. 

He's overseen us wasting the advantage we held as a relegated team and we need a completely different approach going forward. 

 

Edited by DCJonah
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I understand dips in form, for various reasons and i understand highs and lows, but our lows are beyond the pale.

I see the faces on Lee Hendrie and the manager and its clear to me that they steer clear of their own inner thoughts.....sure they make fleeting references, but the truth lies dark and dormant.

We have no answer to teams that want to have a go at us.....its pathetic to watch.

Steve Bruce makes reference to this dark place that he found us in.....and moots we are creeping back in to it.

new players, new coaches.......WHY?

The expectation of Villa is a poor excuse and quite frankly a joke.....our expectation is actually as low as a snakes belly.

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

 

The expectation of Villa is a poor excuse and quite frankly a joke.....our expectation is actually as low as a snakes belly.

Agreed. Any manager worth his salt with confidence in his own ability should be excited by expectation not scared of it. 

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Hes been here for 15 months and been backed heavily in 2 transfer windows and no prpgress has been made, the players hes bought he has no idea how to get the best out of them, we look clueless against any side who can pass a ball and we play 2 defensive midfielders every game. 

He needs to go but i doubt we can afford to sack him. I think we need to accept that we will be in this league for along time now, with us being tight on ffp already come the summer i expect a sale of players. 

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2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I understand dips in form, for various reasons and i understand highs and lows, but our lows are beyond the pale.

I see the faces on Lee Hendrie and the manager and its clear to me that they steer clear of their own inner thoughts.....sure they make fleeting references, but the truth lies dark and dormant.

We have no answer to teams that want to have a go at us.....its pathetic to watch.

Steve Bruce makes reference to this dark place that he found us in.....and moots we are creeping back in to it.

new players, new coaches.......WHY?

The expectation of Villa is a poor excuse and quite frankly a joke.....our expectation is actually as low as a snakes belly.

For me it's because since MON left we have made bad decisions attempting short term fixes. Not once have we tried to build something successful with a plan. So the short term fix doesn't work because we make bad decisions and we end up at the same point again. 

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41 minutes ago, TRO said:

I understand all of that and trust me, i am not arguing the point.....but don't be too surprised if we change manager and after a while, find ourselves back here again.

many things need to change.....we have tried to fast track our way out of a major demise and it isn't working.

Prior to Ron Saunders, we did the very same for years and years.....what changed was Tony Barton along with Ron spotted talent that was hungry and up and coming and blended them in to a unit that had contrast individually but came together as a team.

We are a bunch of disjointed individuals who are struggling to make any kind of cohesive impact on the game.....they don't work for each other, just panic their way through a game by clearing lines and booting their way out of pressure.

Its a combination of many,many things......but it is painful to watch.

ps we just have a few players who are masking over a much bigger problem.

I think we were on the road to recovery before Ron Saunders with Vic Crowe but Doug identified that he could only take us so far and we needed a change. The time has come for another change but we can't make any more mistakes with managers. 

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19 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I think we have reached that tipping point too.

But like I said before, if it wasn't for the past 6 weeks or less, then Wyness' decision to keep Bruce would seem more or less justified. Yes we could have been doing better but we still seemed to be on course to be challenging for promotion under Bruce.

It's fine lines. And I agree Wyness should now take responsibility and Bruce should be sacked. But I'm just not sure I agree that the guy should be sacked for this.

Like I said, I'm happy to be educated on why Wyness should go.

  Maybe some feel in not firing Bruce he’s protecting his own arse rather putting the clubs interests first - the longer the club fail to act the more the finger will be pointed at wyness for not taking action 

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10 minutes ago, TRO said:

I understand dips in form, for various reasons and i understand highs and lows, but our lows are beyond the pale.

I see the faces on Lee Hendrie and the manager and its clear to me that they steer clear of their own inner thoughts.....sure they make fleeting references, but the truth lies dark and dormant.

We have no answer to teams that want to have a go at us.....its pathetic to watch.

Steve Bruce makes reference to this dark place that he found us in.....and moots we are creeping back in to it.

new players, new coaches.......WHY?

The expectation of Villa is a poor excuse and quite frankly a joke.....our expectation is actually as low as a snakes belly.

I agree. We need a total change of culture at the club. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but whatever it is, it's affecting the squad and the match day performances. 

We cannot replace the entire squad now. Besides nobody ever does that. But the backroom staff in it's entirety can be replaced, and quite easily. I'd also look at replacing the entire board, just to clear the air, and start fresh.

And if that doesn't work, then we look to replace most of the senior players next summer. 

And if that doesn't help, we change the name of the club.

And if that doesn't help, then we surely are doomed.

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Before the last January transfer window he said that he would only buy players that significantly improved the team. In the summer he was only going to buy players with premier league experience. Both of these things were going to allow us to compete for automatic promotion. 

We are now only 3 points better off than this time last year with no obvious improvements in style or teamwork. Surely the board must see that no progress has been made. 

I agree with some of the other posters on here regarding the complete failure of Bruce to accept any kind of responsibility. It is as if the universe dictates what happens and he/we just have to accept it! It is infuriating. 

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