Grasshopper Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 8 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: A results business, isn't it? It's interesting that results have us in and around the play off positions, something that would ordinarily be judged as 'okay', not brilliance, but not bad enough to put a manager under any serious pressure. That's how things feel at the ground and in the press. But every fan site or place where people discuss football has more than a smattering of critics and criticism of Bruce and more than a handful of those who would be happy to see him go. It is a results business, but the results demanded by the fanbase will always be one notch up, there's then a line that we're teetering along where results fall into the category of 'acceptable' to remain in place whilst walking that line you have to win the battle for hearts, not just minds - you have to show that 'acceptable' results are tempered with beauty and hope. If you don't you'll be on the edge of trouble, an uncomfortable seat. I think that's where Bruce is, he needs results to keep him in the job before performances put him under pressure. superb post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I will never accept negative football at VP- sorry but no. This is Aston Villa and we expect more- I will acknowledge that Bruce does not send out his team to consistently hit aimless long balls into the forward area and scream “ chase that” but neither does he set out imo to play an open and expansive style that I and many others wish to- i’m Afraid that for me he he will always be 1-2 losing games from fans asking for his head and he must accept his role in this. my bigger concern is our record against the sides above us in the league - sooner or later we are going to need results against these or those around us to cement a play off place in the very least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, Dave J said: I will never accept negative football at VP- sorry but no. Nobody is asking you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody is asking you to. For goodness sake - what is the point of this? i am shocked that you feel the need to post this Stevo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxahunter Posted November 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, TRO said: Personally I refuse to not blame him, but feel a need to clarify. The manager of any football club is responsible, directly or indirectly for what goes on with the football side of the club.....that includes matchday. In terms of what goes on, on the pitch he has limited powers...he can shout instructions, he can move players around, he can arrange substitutions......what he can't do is play for them, make decisions of when to release the ball, make passes, close down, run around intelligently and take up savvy postioning.....there are many more factors that he can't affect to secure the favoured result. No one as i understand comes on here and unconditionally defends SB....they do so in an attempt to apportion the blame fairly. as an example.....i seen Bruce screaming at certain players to push forward yesterday, does that illustrate someone who is encouraging retreat. I just think "refusal to blame Bruce"is a bit of a cop out.....i think some of the players struggle with consistency......i also think Bruce is to blame for many things, but not everything. I dont agree with the bold part, I think he is largely responsible for what goes on, on the pitch, otherwise, what do they do in training. They should be training defensive and attacking setup, how they run in midfield, wings and attack, when and how they release the balls to get into the best attacking positions, they should be training to keep pressing 3-5 seconds after loosing the ball, to close down the opposition and if they dont do it in training, they wont do it on matchdays. He should correct all the mistakes and flaws during the 5 days training during the week, and if the players dont do what they are instructed to do, stop training and explain what they are doing wrong, so they can improve, during the next play. In reality, I dont think Steve Bruce is training the players in the above mentioned. If he does, he is doing a shitty job. Edited November 6, 2017 by Taxahunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted November 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 6, 2017 People who have spent too much time in this thread are turning into zombies... It's all Steve Bruce's fault, Bruce out! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I don't see how he is struggling to adapt and try new methods. It is purely has to be out of fear or hysteria whatever way you want to look at it. Chris Houghton, Eddie Howe, Rafa Benithez, Sam Allerdyce, Steven Warnock, Sean Dyche, Ronald Koeman & David Wagner would all get this current team playing attractive fluient football and have us in the top 3 without a doubt. I don't see how Bruce has this worldly acclaimed wankfest record for promotions when he is clearly suffering from experimental anxiety in this job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: A results business, isn't it? It's interesting that results have us in and around the play off positions, something that would ordinarily be judged as 'okay', not brilliance, but not bad enough to put a manager under any serious pressure. That's how things feel at the ground and in the press. But every fan site or place where people discuss football has more than a smattering of critics and criticism of Bruce and more than a handful of those who would be happy to see him go. I think it's changed a little , I'm not sure it's only about results. Since the leagues changed and became a closed shop at the top, fans of anyone except the top six have been asked to reset their ambitions, to change the way they dream about football, to accept that winning things is no longer for them and their teams and to find satisfaction elsewhere. This is exacerbated because fans are always one notch above where the team is, and in our case, our hopes are a full three or four notches above where we are today (and rightly so). Take the team up the hill; West Brom have wanted to be an established Premier league team for years; they now are. This has been achieved by a pretty dour manager playing terrible football. For Albion fans, one step ahead of their team, this isn't enough. They can't win anything that's a given, but they now see Premier league survival as a right, not an achievement - it leaves them in a strange limbo, that limbo can only be filled with performances. When you can't win, you need to be average in a beautiful way. That'll get Tony Pulis the sack in the end, not results - results aren't the be all and end all any more for Albion. (They will be when they've sacked him and go down - but that's a different topic). For Steve Bruce, as a Villa fan, I expect my team to be in the top flight, in fact, I'd expect them to be in the top half of the top flight - I know we're not, but it doesn't change that idea that lives in my head. Therefore, being in the top six in the Championship isn't a huge achievement - in order for results to be enough on their own, we'd need to be in the top two and looking like a team that can stay there. So sixth for me needs a little something else - it's a cake that needs icing. What we have instead is an un-iced cake that doesn't taste too good. Results are massively important, don't get me wrong, but for any manager now who falls anywhere near short of the results demanded by a fanbase, there needs to be something else - we could be eighth with a young team playing progressive, attacking football and I'd be happy, I'd have something to attach my emotional reaction to the football team to; beauty, a bright future, all those sorts of things. We're not, we're a one shot ageing team playing ugly football that's designed to get results. We're not far off making it work - the team has my head, it can win games. we're hard to beat, we came amass points and a playoff finish is definitely on. That's almost enough to stir the emotions, and it might be enough at the exciting end of the season - but it's a risky game. If those results aren't quite enough, if we're seventh, if we hit a bumpy road, then the football hasn't done enough to grab my heart, or the heart of the fanbase - that's dangerous for a manager - it'll get him trouble. It is a results business, but the results demanded by the fanbase will always be one notch up, there's then a line that we're teetering along where results fall into the category of 'acceptable' to remain in place whilst walking that line you have to win the battle for hearts, not just minds - you have to show that 'acceptable' results are tempered with beauty and hope. If you don't you'll be on the edge of trouble, an uncomfortable seat. I think that's where Bruce is, he needs results to keep him in the job before performances put him under pressure. This ^^^^ needs to be written by a tabloid journalist so that a wider audience can see that it just isn't all about being in the Premier League - it's about being able to enjoy what we watch too! PS: I work with an Albion fan that hates Pulis with a passion and says that he would rather see Albion in the Championship playing something close to exciting football than to just plod along being defence-mind, don't lose at all cost also-rans in the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: I don't see how he is struggling to adapt and try new methods. It is purely has to be out of fear or hysteria whatever way you want to look at it. Chris Houghton, Eddie Howe, Rafa Benithez, Sam Allerdyce, Steven Warnock, Sean Dyche, Ronald Koeman & David Wagner would all get this current team playing attractive fluient football and have us in the top 3 without a doubt. I don't see how Bruce has this worldly acclaimed wankfest record for promotions when he is clearly suffering from experimental anxiety in this job. The clubs he won promotion with had less expectations than this club and less pressure - I think he has struggled himself to handle the expectation levels and pressure -could be the club is too big for him to handle and it wouldn’t be the first time . things have improved this season and I hope he can see us through to promotion but this is a very different club to those he succeeded at previously , sometimes his fear of defeat outweighs the need to win and results in him being too negative I feel Edited November 6, 2017 by Eastie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 It's said that Bruce is so highly regarded by peers, players and whatnot. There are what, three vacancies in the Premier League at the moment? Funny how none are coming after our messiah. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Chris Houghton, Eddie Howe, Rafa Benithez, Sam Allerdyce, Steven Warnock, Sean Dyche, Ronald Koeman & David Wagner would all get this current team playing attractive fluient football and have us in the top 3 without a doubt. I'm inclined to agree. But only one (assuming you meant Neil Warnock), MAYBE two of those you've named would come here at the moment. And they are the two least likely to do what you've described. Edited November 6, 2017 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 28 minutes ago, vreitti said: It's said that Bruce is so highly regarded by peers, players and whatnot. There are what, three vacancies in the Premier League at the moment? Funny how none are coming after our messiah. Good championship manager maybe but not a good premiership manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 12 minutes ago, Eastie said: Good bottom half championship manager maybe but not a good premiership manager fixed that for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 3 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Chris Houghton, Eddie Howe, Rafa Benithez, Sam Allerdyce, Steven Warnock, Sean Dyche, Ronald Koeman & David Wagner would all get this current team playing attractive fluient football and have us in the top 3 without a doubt. I never realised things were that simple. Really makes you wonder why we haven't just waved our magic wand and made it happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted November 6, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 6, 2017 8 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: ...It is a results business, but the results demanded by the fanbase will always be one notch up, there's then a line that we're teetering along where results fall into the category of 'acceptable' to remain in place whilst walking that line you have to win the battle for hearts, not just minds - you have to show that 'acceptable' results are tempered with beauty and hope. If you don't you'll be on the edge of trouble, an uncomfortable seat. I think that's where Bruce is, he needs results to keep him in the job before performances put him under pressure.... Good post all round. I think I'm odd. In the second half at Preston in midweek, I was stood there watching us play, bored out of my head. Yes the defending was admirable and the disciplined play and so on. It was effective, we were 2-0 up and it was comfortable. And I was massively bored. I was sort of thinking "it's nice we're winning, but I'm not enjoying it" On Saturday second half, at least after Grealish came on, I was stood there watching us play (at last) some attacking, creative football . Yes the defending and some of the play was ropey and the side seemed somewhat disorganised and we were 2-0 down, but it was enjoyable just seeing a few of the players genuinely doing the best they could to try and create and score goals. I'm not really fussed if we go up, or don't. It's not going to harm my life. It would be nice to progress onwards and upwards, but...whatever... I think where I am then, is I want reasonable or better results, but most of all I want to consistently enjoy watching the side. Getting frustrated at risk averse football is worse than getting let down by a side that tries to play the right way, but falls short, sometimes, in the results. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I don’t want to get stuck in the false dichotomy of wanting results OR wanting some entertainment in the style of play. It should not be necessary for us to choose either one or other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 11 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Resigned after poor start to following seasons Then managed Porto for 2 years. So yes he may not have won much as a manager but he has managed some pretty big clubs. A lot bigger than clubs managed by any other Championship manager. He doesn't seem to stay anywhere long....just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerner's Driver Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 36 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: I don’t want to get stuck in the false dichotomy of wanting results OR wanting some entertainment in the style of play. It should not be necessary for us to choose either one or other. In what realistic sense do we get to choose at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I remember Pulis being touted by some before Bruce took over, many many people were turning up their noses at the prospect of him becoming manager because his football was dire. I guess people seem to warming to the idea under Bruce though, they do say that acceptance is one of the 5 stages of grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 10 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: A results business, isn't it? It's interesting that results have us in and around the play off positions, something that would ordinarily be judged as 'okay', not brilliance, but not bad enough to put a manager under any serious pressure. That's how things feel at the ground and in the press. But every fan site or place where people discuss football has more than a smattering of critics and criticism of Bruce and more than a handful of those who would be happy to see him go. I think it's changed a little , I'm not sure it's only about results. Since the leagues changed and became a closed shop at the top, fans of anyone except the top six have been asked to reset their ambitions, to change the way they dream about football, to accept that winning things is no longer for them and their teams and to find satisfaction elsewhere. This is exacerbated because fans are always one notch above where the team is, and in our case, our hopes are a full three or four notches above where we are today (and rightly so). Take the team up the hill; West Brom have wanted to be an established Premier league team for years; they now are. This has been achieved by a pretty dour manager playing terrible football. For Albion fans, one step ahead of their team, this isn't enough. They can't win anything that's a given, but they now see Premier league survival as a right, not an achievement - it leaves them in a strange limbo, that limbo can only be filled with performances. When you can't win, you need to be average in a beautiful way. That'll get Tony Pulis the sack in the end, not results - results aren't the be all and end all any more for Albion. (They will be when they've sacked him and go down - but that's a different topic). For Steve Bruce, as a Villa fan, I expect my team to be in the top flight, in fact, I'd expect them to be in the top half of the top flight - I know we're not, but it doesn't change that idea that lives in my head. Therefore, being in the top six in the Championship isn't a huge achievement - in order for results to be enough on their own, we'd need to be in the top two and looking like a team that can stay there. So sixth for me needs a little something else - it's a cake that needs icing. What we have instead is an un-iced cake that doesn't taste too good. Results are massively important, don't get me wrong, but for any manager now who falls anywhere near short of the results demanded by a fanbase, there needs to be something else - we could be eighth with a young team playing progressive, attacking football and I'd be happy, I'd have something to attach my emotional reaction to the football team to; beauty, a bright future, all those sorts of things. We're not, we're a one shot ageing team playing ugly football that's designed to get results. We're not far off making it work - the team has my head, it can win games. we're hard to beat, we came amass points and a playoff finish is definitely on. That's almost enough to stir the emotions, and it might be enough at the exciting end of the season - but it's a risky game. If those results aren't quite enough, if we're seventh, if we hit a bumpy road, then the football hasn't done enough to grab my heart, or the heart of the fanbase - that's dangerous for a manager - it'll get him trouble. It is a results business, but the results demanded by the fanbase will always be one notch up, there's then a line that we're teetering along where results fall into the category of 'acceptable' to remain in place whilst walking that line you have to win the battle for hearts, not just minds - you have to show that 'acceptable' results are tempered with beauty and hope. If you don't you'll be on the edge of trouble, an uncomfortable seat. I think that's where Bruce is, he needs results to keep him in the job before performances put him under pressure. what a good resume....I am in sync with that. I think there is a danger that we have been in the cess pit so long, anything with a modicum of joy attached to it like a win, is welcome. some of us older fans have experienced players with a far higher level of skill and application....I think we have had so many misses with players signings and players we should not have let go, they we are pardon a phrase punch drunk with poor decisions. I am a results first man...but I do not ignore some of the fans who are critical of our play....because i know they are right. Right now I am no more confident than I am nervous about the next game, I think we are very predictable in our play, but unpredictable as to what form we will be in on matchday. I think Steve Bruce is very much like Tony pulis in so much that the sack is never far away. I accept that Steve relies on his players reactively as opposed to proactively making sure they are prepared...i.e Snodgrass. I think we will be in trouble without JT, but also disturbs me how many injuries we get to key players, we do rely on too few players to do 80% of the damage....the others are passive link men. I think our style lends itself to attracting injuries and suspensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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