Steve Bruce

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said:

We've spent how much ? And that's just to make us hard to beat .God knows , how much it's going to cost to get us playing decent football . I'm sure someone will have some stats at hand to enlighten me .

85 million dollars.   pm me and i'll send the budget projections, an abacus, a protractor, and a home course on calculus.

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

85 million dollars.   pm me and i'll send the budget projections, an abacus, a protractor, and a home course on calculus.

Not that much then .

[DaveAV1]

22 hours ago, vreitti said:

This is another thing the I cannot understand. How on earth does a director, CEO or what not 'suit' implement an "Aston Villa way" of playing? Surely this has to come from the manager to begin with?

Well that's a bloody good question, which I can't answer. However that's more or less what the club said or implied and most people nod towards Southampton as a good example of how it's possible. 

I believe that the club appointed Bruce as a quick fix with the intention of finding the Aston Villa way once we'd solved the immediate problem of not being in the Prem. The Doc said as much in a tweet soon after Bruce's appointment, which said something along the lines, that he'd been impressed with him and he might even keep him beyond promotion. A back handed compliment if ever there was one!

[DaveAV1]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

Yes Dave, era's do have to be taken in to consideration and they didn't have the restrictions of transfer windows......also the commercial side of the club is far more complex hence requiring further staff.

Despite the obvious changes that occur as football evolves, there are principles that rarely change.....in my view, it's those principles they were referring to.

when you have dropped as far as we have you cannot always buy players the ideal players you want you have to evolve towards them......thats what GT And TB was telling me.....if you remember, we bought a Frank Carradus and then Evolved to Des Bremner as a better version.

IMO some of us are forming our opinions on SB too soon......one window and no pre season is too soon to judge.

I am also of the opinion that the transfers in Jan was a bit rushed and it could materialise that the haste, which was inevitable under the circumstances, may need revisiting.

Transfer windows IMO opinion have slowed down the whole process of a massive demise and we just have to be patient.

If the manager can't see it or has no idea how to change it, I would be joining in with the SB out brigade.....my humble opinion is he still does not have the balance right and he knows it.....and will attempt to put it right in the summer.

just remember too, not every player comes off.....at any club and there are plenty of examples.

I agree the transfer window has changed things, generally in favour of the big spending clubs as usual. Chelsea have over 30 players out on loan letting other clubs develop them and take the risk, then keep the good ones. But that's a subject for another time. 

Using the example you gave of Frank Carradus and Des Bremner, I would agree with no disrespect to Frank, who was a fine player, that Des Bremner was an up grade. However I don't believe that either of those players were expensive or high profile. They were good players but most of us hadn't heard of before they arrived. They were bought to fit into a system that suited their style and they improved as players because they worked hard and knew what was expected of them. As opposed to a number of our January signings that were expensive, came with big reputations and with little thought of how we would utilise them and how they'd compliment the system. If indeed there is a system. 

[blandy]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I'd like to see that table.

We're 12th now and we were 19th when he took over. So it doesn't add up to me.

 

Edit: I've done it myself. Statto.com allows you to make a custom table like that.

Since he took over we're 10th, 5 points below 6th. I guess it's up to you whether that's "close" or not.

Granted is lower than where I thought we'd be, but again I would add the caveat that the points needed for playoffs is particularly high this year.

Exactly my point. 10th. I'm not anti or pro Bruce. Just commenting on what his record is. It's mid table. He might do better next year, he might not. The point was, there's no evidence from his record at villa that he is almost there. It's all down to how anyone feels or analyses things. I was attempting to debunk, to an extent, what I see as overly optimistic predictions based on exaggerated claims of "excellence" at this level. He's a solid manager, but with limitations. It may work, it may not. Give him a decent go, see what transpires. Enjoy.

[blandy]

3 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I am hopeful

Yeah, me too Mark, always. It's just chat, the rest. 

[villan_007]

I'm still in the Bruce in camp, and I can see where the Bruce out people are at. I'd like to ask @Grasshopper and @vreitti about how they feel about that great point on the previous page.

Last seasons bottom 8 being the majority of this yrs top 6. Just reading about Wagners first half season at Huddersfield, they were terrible and almost dropped.

Do you not think it warrants sticking to our guns, getting a proper pre-season in and letting Bruce do what he does in this league?

[Villarocker]

I'd sack him after 6 games if we don't hit the ground running. We don't want another scenario like last season where we waste 11 games and give the new guy an excuse not to get us promoted. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

19 hours ago, vreitti said:

Did I say 'nothing' happens during preseason? 

I just happen to think the importance of a preseason is greatly exaggerated by some.

I don't think it can be exaggerated. SIX WEEKS training and only training, drilling tactics and fitness into them with no distractions. No taking over another managers mess and trying to correct his mistakes on the hoof with a game every other fecking day and international breaks to contend with, which unlike most Championship clubs has been a genuine problem for us. If anything I think it's massively underestimated just how important it can be.

Of course he might use that time to make things worse, we shall see. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

10 hours ago, blandy said:

Exactly my point. 10th. I'm not anti or pro Bruce. Just commenting on what his record is. It's mid table. He might do better next year, he might not. The point was, there's no evidence from his record at villa that he is almost there. It's all down to how anyone feels or analyses things. I was attempting to debunk, to an extent, what I see as overly optimistic predictions based on exaggerated claims of "excellence" at this level. He's a solid manager, but with limitations. It may work, it may not. Give him a decent go, see what transpires. Enjoy.

That's over a 33 game period. He's not done a great job here, or a poor one, probably just OK with a horrible bit in the middle. Mid-table, as you said.

His Championship record, from memory, extends into approx 350 games. Why would you not take that as a whole? He has a +50% win ratio over that time.

Edited April 27, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Blandy, when I keep banging my drum that I don't think I see Bruce doing enough to change the culture, your post states perfectly a part of what I see.  

" It looks like there is not enough time and work and know how being spent on getting midfielders and forwards to establish patterns of movement, play, runs, passing and so on"  

Our culture had/has become one of a general lack of discipline and lack of commitment.  When that is the case, you can't just let players move freely as they feel in the moment.  You have to "establish patterns of movement, play, runs, passing and so on."  There is little to no evidence on the pitch that this is happening.  To an earlier post, it's easier to do that in a pre-season.  But my God, you could make miles of headway with an hour long classroom with drawings and charts followed by 2 hours on the training pitch walking through the motions, then half speed, then full speed, then with an opponent.  Progress can still be made rapidly.   But I'm not seeing it.  I'm glad Bruce and others see it's missing, too.  But you don't just wish for these things.  You coach them.  Or at least you should.  

How do you know, he is not doing those things......We don't know, what he is doing at BMH.

There are too many if's buts and maybe's.

[blandy]

12 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

That's over a 33 game period. He's not done a great job here, or a poor one, probably just OK with a horrible bit in the middle. Mid-table, as you said.

His Championship record, from memory, extends into approx 350 games. Why would you not take that as a whole? He has a +50% win ratio over that time.

Because personally I put more weight on recent work than older work. I personally put more weight on experiences at Villa than N years ago at Wigan. I know the game is all about 22 men and a ball, but it also evolves and changes over time - certainly in terms of tactics and techniques for analysing opponents, preparing for games and stuff like that. So as the nature of the opposition changes, the nature of the challenge changes.

For clarity, I dunno how many times I should repeat I'm not anti-Bruce, I don't want him out. Though I wouldn't have picked him to get the job and am a bit dubious that he'll do what we want I absolutely am prepared to give him time. My assessment of him is he is a decent championship manager. Nothing super, nothing awful, just decent. I'm fine if others thing he's better or worse.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

19 minutes ago, blandy said:

Because personally I put more weight on recent work than older work. I personally put more weight on experiences at Villa than N years ago at Wigan. I know the game is all about 22 men and a ball, but it also evolves and changes over time - certainly in terms of tactics and techniques for analysing opponents, preparing for games and stuff like that. So as the nature of the opposition changes, the nature of the challenge changes.

For clarity, I dunno how many times I should repeat I'm not anti-Bruce, I don't want him out. Though I wouldn't have picked him to get the job and am a bit dubious that he'll do what we want I absolutely am prepared to give him time. My assessment of him is he is a decent championship manager. Nothing super, nothing awful, just decent. I'm fine if others thing he's better or worse.

He has never managed Wigan in The Championship. Just an FYI.

He won 24 of 46 with Hull last year finishing on 83 points, 6 shy of automatic promotion. They then won the playoffs. I doubt the game has moved on that much in 12 months? 

Edited April 27, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[sne]

For this great transformation to happen during the pre season this summer we need the players to stay focused and fit during their weeks off.

We can't have players drunkenly falling asleep in the middle of the road, players gaining loads of weight, and we also need to do most if not all of our transfer dealings early.

Discipline is key,not something Villa players have been great at in recent years.

Otherwise we'll have to spend time getting players back into shape instead of training on the things we need to improve like developing a semblance of cohesion in attack and possession.

A 8 week preseason (doubt our attacking will improve much while the players are on holiday) quickly becomes a 4 week preseason if the energy and focus is wasted on the wrong things.

If we like last season do most of our transfer dealings during the last 2 weeks of August, well then it's even harder.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by sne

[Demitri_C]

4 hours ago, villarocker said:

I'd sack him after 6 games if we don't hit the ground running. We don't want another scenario like last season where we waste 11 games and give the new guy an excuse not to get us promoted. 

Yeah if its a RDM style start I would agree, but I have a feeling bruce is going to start well. I mean Wednesday away was a stupid mistake as was same against Huddersfield that was 3 points dropped already 

[TRO]

13 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I agree the transfer window has changed things, generally in favour of the big spending clubs as usual. Chelsea have over 30 players out on loan letting other clubs develop them and take the risk, then keep the good ones. But that's a subject for another time. 

Using the example you gave of Frank Carradus and Des Bremner, I would agree with no disrespect to Frank, who was a fine player, that Des Bremner was an up grade. However I don't believe that either of those players were expensive or high profile. They were good players but most of us hadn't heard of before they arrived. They were bought to fit into a system that suited their style and they improved as players because they worked hard and knew what was expected of them. As opposed to a number of our January signings that were expensive, came with big reputations and with little thought of how we would utilise them and how they'd compliment the system. If indeed there is a system. 

I don't think some of the Jan signings were expensive, some however were in relative terms. In answer to your point about how they fit in, its interesting and i don't have the answer, but I suspect the availability, the desperation for a confidence lift all played a crucial part in the decision, plus the fact that they met the approval of most.It may turn out wrong, we have to wait and see.

As an example...

The change from Frank to Des took some time, more thought and appraisal can be considered when you have the time to do it......everything Steve has had to do has hit him like a steam train.....there's almost no time to think and I think " Godders" made a sensible reference to this in one of his recent posts on how much time a manger has in this division, with games coming so thick and fast.

I see all the arguments on here and it is clear to me that those that support Bruce are only doing so on the basis of time......No one from the "for" camp is giving unconditional support, they are just making the point that the job requires more time than the " anti" camp are prepared to grant.....that of course is assuming there is in fact a " for" and " anti" camp just my way of making and understandable reference.

 

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, sne said:

For this great transformation to happen during the pre season this summer we need the players to stay focused and fit during their weeks off.

We can't have players drunkenly falling asleep in the middle of the road, players gaining loads of weight, and we also need to do most if not all of our transfer dealings early.

Discipline is key,not something Villa players have been great at in recent years.

Otherwise we'll have to spend time getting players back into shape instead of training on the things we need to improve like developing a semblance of cohesion in attack and possession.

A 8 week preseason (doubt our attacking will improve much while the players are on holiday) quickly becomes a 4 week preseason if the energy and focus is wasted on the wrong things.

If we like last season do most of our transfer dealings during the last 2 weeks of August, well then it's even harder.

 

good point.....Discipline is a key element, that is sometimes overlooked.

[TRO]

Even if our team had of made the play offs and we had of won through.....this team would most possibly, come straight back down.

This team is not ready for the premiership and performances have clearly shown that.

Much better to go up with gusto and be" prepared" than winging it and " unprepared"

roll on next season.

[BOF]

17 hours ago, blandy said:

I saw a table done of every teams points haul from the date Bruce was appointed to just before the SHA game. Villa were 12th. Accepted the win on Sunday may have changed position upwards by a place, but over the period he's been in charge the gap to the top 6 has got bigger. I'm in favour of letting him have a proper go next season, I'm not saying sack him, that would be a bad move, though my own faith in him is limited (I accept I'm not good at judging managers or predicting the future, and am happy to let the club people decide what's best in that regard).

This is from gameweek 12 (his first game v Wolves) up to but not including the small heath victory.

 

This tags on the sha result + other gameweek 44 results

[AshVilla]

I've seen nothing to suggest that we will be tearing up the division next season going up automatically like we should be.