Steve Bruce

[TheStagMan]

15 hours ago, holteend1982 said:

Slate him as a manager all you want that's an opinion to do with football but you can't call him a pathetic man. He lost both parents but was still in our dugout come the weekend then when we were days away from administration he was still willing to stay as manager despite the amount of shite the club was about to go through. The personal attacks like this are unnecessary, childish and part of the toxicity we've been trying to rid from this club since Lerner left. Just no need for it. 

Calling him a pathetic man is not on, but I would like to challenge the rest of your post:

1. Willing to stay as manager - well, it doesn't seem like there was a queue of clubs wanting him (Leeds were sniffing when they thought they might get him on the cheap), plus why would he leave? when there is a couple of million quid payofff on the cards? I don't buy this "he stuck with us" malarky. He was under contract to do so, earning a huge salary and with no queue of suitors lining up and effectively in a "no-lose" scenario. 

2. Personal attacks are coming from him also. The way he attacks the fans, the hysteria comments etc are unacceptable.

3. Loss of parents. Whilst very sad and I do feel for him (and anyone else in the same situation) he is not the first to work during bereavement and wont be the last. **edited to add condolences to Dave-R**

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by TheStagMan

[TRO]

14 hours ago, thabucks said:

I worked for OUFC for a number of years and got to make a few friends higher up the league.... I was being briefed by someone  close to Bruce who also used to be my boss.... I also know a few agents and scoutswhom I’ve kept in touch with. I know more than I can get away with saying.. football is a weird business ... it’s sort of closed to outsiders but if you can get an in then they never shut up ! 

I digress but from what I was told about Bruce this and last summer which I have touched upon then I feel he should be removed sooner rather than later. 

Because of what I know through being in the game and also what I’ve been told since the end of his first season .... I think a few of his supporters may have second thoughts ... 

I’m also a petulant & prone to lashing out... I do not mean offence by my posts but I cannot help it when it comes to our current predicament if I ever sound condescending... I apologise !    

I only support him from personal abuse or allegations I find questionable.

We are playing shite football we all agree on that.

I don't doubt you know people in the game, its their opinions and they have reasons for forming them.

I used be extremely close to a prominent Villa Player of the day.....He was not very fond of the manager.

I loved the manager in terms of the job he did, so my thoughts were compromised....because I liked both of them.

as individuals we cannot always share other peoples opinions, we can listen and digest that is all.

I guess if every man and his dog had a derogatory opinion on someone we liked, we may have to revisit our appraisal of them.

Its not set in tablets of stone.

personally.....I am happy to share my frustration and anger at the football we play.....but I refuse to character assassinate the manager....In my eyes they are 2 different things.

I don't know the man....He may be trying his best, but we see it as a million miles from what we want.

I would say to any fan....don't let your frustration cloud your judgement.

Shout from the rooftops the football is turgid, its our prerogative......but don't get confused by abusing the man, because reasonable people won't listen to that.

[terrytini]

Whilst I respect the fact that everyone is entitled to air their views, I find the increasing personal and conspiratorial criticisms, including the use of isolated ex- player quotes and the passing on of second and third hand gossip, unnecessary, distasteful, and, in view of the fact he cant respond, unfair.

Increasingly it has the feel of an attempt by some to stir up dissatisfaction rather than to air critical appraisal of the Managers performance.

I wish it would stop.

[thabucks]

Considering the turmoil of the summer I could of forgiven Bruce had he actually tried to change his ways... I wanted to see youth injected into not just the squad but 1st team for example with Bree and Clark as FB’s for one replacing Elmo & Hutton as first choices ... at least then we were building towards something sustainable as a base for the future... but no he sticks with what he knows...tried and tested in fear... 

[TRO]

17 hours ago, thabucks said:

You are right about one thing Steve , the new owners have breathed fresh life into the club.... what a pity Steve that your foul stench of desperation, excuses and overall shitness is choking the newly found fresh life ... 

He is a relic of a bygone era where you could get away with the nonsense he spouts ... about putting boots on blah blah blah ... It’s no wonder if that is the level of first class English old skool coaching we have won  jack shit in this country since 66...

Watching Pep on All or Nothing ... the passion the thoughtfulness and insight... the knowledge on how to dictate play through different phases, in game manipulation ... And we get **** SB ... all I ask is they put their boots on and pull their sleeves up....  

 

Look, Things are worst than poor in my view, but come on...

Do you honestly believe that's all he says to them?.....He says that flippantly to a press man in a quick interview.....I think its unwise to hang on to a mans every word as gospel and form an opinion on what would normally be a long drawn out explanation of what he feels.

Right now, I am as unconvinced in what he is doing by virtue of what I see on matchday.....If I was privy to his whole working behind the scenes life, I may have a slightly different view....and I may not.....but it would open up a broader view.

I just want to remind you, That they were saying that about Ron Saunders all those years back ...110% workrate, was rolled out in a derisory fashion every time the mans name was mentioned in the Press....He was compared disparagingly with the likes of Ron Greenwood and Dave Sexton the shining lights of expansive football of the day.

Tony Pulis, is perched in the top 2 with his version of Dinosaur football and Neil Warnock despite his reputation as such still managed to get Cardiff up.

Nothing that you or I say about Steve Bruce, will influence the owners.....I guess they have Brian Little, Ian Taylor and the whole Euro winning team to call on for advice as to whether Steve Bruce is of merchantable quality.

You are a knowledgeable football fan and a good writer.....stick to what you see and less of what you think of him.

Football is about opinions....and what suits Man Utd may not suit Mansfield.....there are different Agenda's, Maybe why Neil Warnock calls himself Red Adair, only called in to bail someone out.....and expansive game would not necessarily have got Cardiff up.....there challenge is now, transforming.....Stoke did it for a spell, but back where they started....Its not as simple as we try to make out.

FWIW I too think that Steve's time may be up.....and phase 2 needs to be started.....He saved us from death by a thousand cuts at the time.....now is a different time.

The owners will make their move when they think the time is right....In the meantime, I am going to try my best to get behind them.....I don't see any other way.

PS don't think because I wrote this I am happy....I see what you see.....and I am far from happy.....I just think so many things written about him, smack from frustration and lend itself to bluster as opposed to substance.

 

 

[villabromsgrove]

Criticism is becoming heated as we become more frustrated with the abject performance of our "management team'.

How many times can we witness the same clueless lack of 'tactics', or the continuing inability to even pick a balanced team on match day?

How many times must we listen to post match SB interviews and excuses, that don't in any way match up with what we've just watched and suffered through?

I think there's a fairly unanimous agreement among us on VT that Bruce is incapable of taking us forward. There may even be a shared majority opinion that Bruce is actually holding us back.

If that's so then all we are currently doing on this thread is waiting for the inevitable.

 

Steve has dodged the bullet several times in his AVFC tenure (imo). There have been a number of occasions where one more loss may well have got him the sack. Tonight against Rotherham will probably be another such occasion.  I expect the players will once again conjure a 'job saving' win for SB. Steve will tell you that we've only lost one league game this season .... and we may argue that it's six matches since we won one!

Three points will be very welcome, but the frustration will continue to grow as we worry about how we will manage to cock up the game against Sheffield Wednesday at VP this weekend! Then there's Bristol City away and a match in which we will be considered underdogs, followed by Preston who are rooted at the bottom of the table, and will be our third home match in a fortnight (we don't beat relegation zone teams at the moment do we?)

It should be almost impossible to  bugger up such a low key set of fixtures, so it's likely that Bruce will survive, even if he does so by continuing to tie up the player's boots, roll their sleeves up for them, and furiously bang more square pegs into yet more round holes.

I had convinced myself that Bruce was going to be replaced during the international break, but it didn't happen. Perhaps our new CEO has looked at our upcoming fixtures and told NSWE that "even Steve Bruce can't cock these games up, which gives us a bit more time to source a replacement"!

I guess what I'm trying to say in my usual rambling way is that change has to happen and will happen, but probably not quickly enough to prevent some increasingly angry venting on this thread.

I guess that's the therapeutic value of VT. 

 

 

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

Whilst I respect the fact that everyone is entitled to air their views, I find the increasing personal and conspiratorial criticisms, including the use of isolated ex- player quotes and the passing on of second and third hand gossip, unnecessary, distasteful, and, in view of the fact he cant respond, unfair.

Increasingly it has the feel of an attempt by some to stir up dissatisfaction rather than to air critical appraisal of the Managers performance.

I wish it would stop.

I concur.

[imavillan]

Theres a good article here on vitalvilla. 

https://astonvilla.vitalfootball.co.uk/the-shocking-truth-about-aston-villas-form-since-the-great-win-v-wolves/

That’s pretty worrying, isn’t it? As much as I want Bruce to do well, 8 wins in 22 games isn’t good.

For auto promotion you really need to be winning around 60% of your games.

8 wins in 22 is a win ratio of around 36%. Way off.

 

The most damming stat that we have only won 8 games in 22 since the Wolves match.

When you see that stat it tells you everything you need to know, everything !!!

Time for change? Most definitely, however i fear it will not happen until its too late and this season will be another write off.

 

 

 

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

Criticism is becoming heated as we become more frustrated with the abject performance of our "management team'.

How many times can we witness the same clueless lack of 'tactics', or the continuing inability to even pick a balanced team on match day?

How many times must we listen to post match SB interviews and excuses, that don't in any way match up with what we've just watched and suffered through?

I think there's a fairly unanimous agreement among us on VT that Bruce is incapable of taking us forward. There may even be a shared majority opinion that Bruce is actually holding us back.

If that's so then all we are currently doing on this thread is waiting for the inevitable.

 

Steve has dodged the bullet several times in his AVFC tenure (imo). There have been a number of occasions where one more loss may well have got him the sack. Tonight against Rotherham will probably be another such occasion.  I expect the players will once again conjure a 'job saving' win for SB. Steve will tell you that we've only lost one league game this season .... and we may argue that it's six matches since we won one!

Three points will be very welcome, but the frustration will continue to grow as we worry about how we will manage to cock up the game against Sheffield Wednesday at VP this weekend! Then there's Bristol City away and a match in which we will be considered underdogs, followed by Preston who are rooted at the bottom of the table, and will be our third home match in a fortnight (we don't beat relegation zone teams at the moment do we?)

It should be almost impossible to  bugger up such a low key set of fixtures, so it's likely that Bruce will survive, even if he does so by continuing to tie up the player's boots, roll their sleeves up for them, and furiously bang more square pegs into yet more round holes.

I had convinced myself that Bruce was going to be replaced during the international break, but it didn't happen. Perhaps our new CEO has looked at our upcoming fixtures and told NSWE that "even Steve Bruce can't cock these games up, which gives us a bit more time to source a replacement"!

I guess what I'm trying to say in my usual rambling way is that change has to happen and will happen, but probably not quickly enough to prevent some increasingly angry venting on this thread.

I guess that's the therapeutic value of VT. 

 

 

 

I guess that's true.....and we all have a different way of expressing our frustration.

I was far more vociferous in my youth and Now, far more mellow in my outpourings.....I would like to think, I am more balanced in my views than I was in my 30's

I marched to get Doug Ellis out.....I was less than complimentary of the play from Des Bremner in my youth.....I would like to revisit those opinions particularly Des....albeit despite my disdain at Doug, I can see now he did have some redeeming features.

I take what most managers say with a pinch of salt.....its a business, they are in.

I wouldn't care if a 2 headed monster managed our team and breathed fire when called up on to comment after a game.

I just want us to win our Unfair share of games to gain promotion.

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, imavillan said:

Theres a good article here on vitalvilla. 

https://astonvilla.vitalfootball.co.uk/the-shocking-truth-about-aston-villas-form-since-the-great-win-v-wolves/

That’s pretty worrying, isn’t it? As much as I want Bruce to do well, 8 wins in 22 games isn’t good.

For auto promotion you really need to be winning around 60% of your games.

8 wins in 22 is a win ratio of around 36%. Way off.

 

The most damming stat that we have only won 8 games in 22 since the Wolves match.

When you see that stat it tells you everything you need to know, everything !!!

Time for change? Most definitely, however i fear it will not happen until its too late and this season will be another write off.

 

 

 

Prima Donna's or what?.....no conviction.

Edited September 18, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

51 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Considering the turmoil of the summer I could of forgiven Bruce had he actually tried to change his ways... I wanted to see youth injected into not just the squad but 1st team for example with Bree and Clark as FB’s for one replacing Elmo & Hutton as first choices ... at least then we were building towards something sustainable as a base for the future... but no he sticks with what he knows...tried and tested in fear... 

I think that's a reasonable call.

I don't think those 2 players would be any better, but that's my call.

I am not fussed on Elmo at all, too passive for me....But would Bree and Clark give us anymore?

I accept we will never know without trying.

[imavillan]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Prima Donna's or what?.....no conviction.

Prima Donna's, maybe, but it still comes down to leadership and direction and as we all know reading this thread and others the evidence is all there for us to see that it's clearly lacking.

Leadership comes from the top down. We need the new CEO to show us the direction we need, but as has been stated in numerous other posts only if there is a recruitment plan in place.

Edited September 18, 2018 by imavillan

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, thabucks said:

Considering the turmoil of the summer I could of forgiven Bruce had he actually tried to change his ways... I wanted to see youth injected into not just the squad but 1st team for example with Bree and Clark as FB’s for one replacing Elmo & Hutton as first choices ... at least then we were building towards something sustainable as a base for the future... but no he sticks with what he knows...tried and tested in fear... 

I was also genuinely hoping with the fresh new owners, investment and optimism it would encourage him to progress his football approach, however it seems he is simply set in his ways.

Personally, I don't think he has any interest in the long term progression of the club and only has the esteem of the job and salary in view.

Why not just keep cushy in a big job where you are comfortable and get paid handsomely, as well are able to get away with absolute average with a large section of the fanbase?

Based on some of the things I've read this "loyalty" etc drivel is just a created facade.

Before anyone lynches me this is obviously just my opinion.

 

[villabromsgrove]

I was just talking to one of my sons about how Villa are "still trying to find a system" according to Bruce. He simplified the whole thing for me by getting me to imagine that each of our players was  a 'Top Trump' card (remember the game?).

Our attacking players individually beat the attacking players of most other Championship teams. On the other hand our defensive players are beaten by a lot of other teams.

So why do we set up negatively? How about "finding a system" that utilises the winning strengths of our 'Top Trump' cards Steve?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Just now, villabromsgrove said:

I was just talking to one of my sons about how Villa are "still trying to find a system" according to Bruce. He simplified the whole thing for me by getting me to imagine that each of our players was  a 'Top Trump' card (remember the game?).

Our attacking players individually beat the attacking players of most other Championship teams. On the other hand our defensive players are beaten by a lot of other teams.

So why do we set up negatively? How about "finding a system" that utilises the winning strengths of our 'Top Trump' cards Steve?

In other words, our team would wipe the floor with every  other Championship team in Fifa with any half decent player/manager who knew how to set the team up.

As stupid as it seems, alot of people discredit these video games without realising how advanced and accurate alot of them actually are.

These younger players/managers actually get great practice with them.

It is akin to trainee pilots in a flight simulator. (Obviously different levels totally but you get it i hope)

 

[romavillan]

13 minutes ago, imavillan said:

Prima Donna's, maybe, but it still comes down to leadership and direction and as we all know reading this thread and others the evidence is all there for us to see that it's clearly lacking.

Leadership comes from the top down. We need the new CEO to show us the direction we need, but as has been stated in numerous other posts only if there is a recruitment plan in place.

I'm not even sure it's leadership and direction, I think we suffer from a lack of basic organisation. When I watch us play I find it hard to see any kind of worked on patterns of movement, the player on the ball is quite often without any kind of option and nothing "automatic" from training to fall back on, so we go long....

It's modern football's ABC's we're missing out on in my opinion. When we play good footballing sides, even relatively direct ones, teams that like to go back to front quickly, they look different class. They really shouldn't when you look at what we've had in our squad for a few years at this level. It's the fundamentals that are lacking for me, Bruce gave us fighting spirit, resilience, an actual team spirit and some soul for the first time in years. That looks like it's petering out and without the basics to fall back on we look awful.

[holteend1982]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

Calling him a pathetic man is not on, but I would like to challenge the rest of your post:

1. Willing to stay as manager - well, it doesn't seem like there was a queue of clubs wanting him (Leeds were sniffing when they thought they might get him on the cheap), plus why would he leave? when there is a couple of million quid payofff on the cards? I don't buy this "he stuck with us" malarky. He was under contract to do so, earning a huge salary and with no queue of suitors lining up and effectively in a "no-lose" scenario. 

2. Personal attacks are coming from him also. The way he attacks the fans, the hysteria comments etc are unacceptable.

3. Loss of parents. Whilst very sad and I do feel for him (and anyone else in the same situation) he is not the first to work during bereavement and wont be the last. **edited to add condolences to Dave-R**

 

You could argue the opposite for the first point, he has plenty of money he doesn't need a payout or another job to walk into. It would have been easier for him to quit than go through what we was about to for the sake of a couple of million. There would have been more reasons he wanted to stay than just a bit of a pay out. 

His comments are also unnecessary and his interviews annoy me more and more with each passing week as they just seem to be excuses now and finally whilst I know he won't be the first to work through something like that it's still commendable that he didnt miss a game with all that going on. 

I'm only praising him as a person after some of the things said about him though not a manager, I've grown bored of watching us play, the selections have  been baffling and our results poor. I'm about ready for a change providing some thought has actually gone into it rather than just replacing him with another similar manager. 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I was also genuinely hoping with the fresh new owners, investment and optimism it would encourage him to progress his football approach, however it seems he is simply set in his ways.

Personally, I don't think he has any interest in the long term progression of the club and only has the esteem of the job and salary in view.

Why not just keep cushy in a big job where you are comfortable and get paid handsomely, as well are able to get away with absolute average with a large section of the fanbase?

Based on some of the things I've read this "loyalty" etc drivel is just a created facade.

Before anyone lynches me this is obviously just my opinion.

 

My opinion is, for whatever reason, he can't get them to function as a team.

There are players settling in which is a truism ,despite us tired of listening to that.

I don't think the fans will allow him unconditional time, why should we.....but traditionally some fans are more placid and have more patience than others, that doesn't mean they are right by the way, just fact.

I think there is always a temptation to jump to the conclusion when large salaries are involved....but I genuinely think he is as eager as us to win, his body language alone tells us that during a match.....He is clearly Frustrated, but we have little sympathy, because he is the only one who can influence it.

all we can do is wallow in frustration.

What we can all say, without fear of contradiction is...….It ain't working right now.

However, as much as it pains me to say this.....We do need to get behind them, because they are our team.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

My opinion is, for whatever reason, he can't get them to function as a team.

There are players settling in which is a truism ,despite us tired of listening to that.

I don't think the fans will allow him unconditional time, why should we.....but traditionally some fans are more placid and have more patience than others, that doesn't mean they are right by the way, just fact.

I think there is always a temptation to jump to the conclusion when large salaries are involved....but I genuinely think he is as eager as us to win, his body language alone tells us that during a match.....He is clearly Frustrated, but we have little sympathy, because he is the only one who can influence it.

all we can do is wallow in frustration.

What we can all say, without fear of contradiction is...….It ain't working right now.

However, as much as it pains me to say this.....We do need to get behind them, because they are our team.

This is indeed painful, because, no matter how much vitriol we spew here, deep down on a match day, i'm pretty sure all of us want our words rammed down our throats.

Even if you are thinking "I won't get carried away by a win because it's just papering over cracks" or "If we lose today surely he must go" you still will the win.

I've now found myself expecting nothing on a match day, and not being particularly elated or deflated anymore, literally just MEH.

I hate the feeling.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

I was just talking to one of my sons about how Villa are "still trying to find a system" according to Bruce. He simplified the whole thing for me by getting me to imagine that each of our players was  a 'Top Trump' card (remember the game?).

Our attacking players individually beat the attacking players of most other Championship teams. On the other hand our defensive players are beaten by a lot of other teams.

So why do we set up negatively? How about "finding a system" that utilises the winning strengths of our 'Top Trump' cards Steve?

Its a good point and who am I to argue with that.

my only observation is......up to now we don't hold the ball up very well.....If we did, then I think the point has more merit.

We tend to make a surprise burst in to the box on isolated occasions, as opposed to controlling our football in the last third and work a move.

I think the defensive side of our offensive players is poor, (but then the offensive side of our defensive players is poor too)...hence why I think he is reluctant to try your otherwise good thoughts.

but hey! I am just speculating on his thoughts.