Steve Bruce

[Rob182]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

"prove" was the wrong word. Apologies.

What I meant was you are showing why people are saying keeping Bruce might be the best option. Not as in why they are right, just why they are thinking it.

Obviously nobody is going to say we should keep Bruce instead of getting (insert name of really good manager here)

But given the difficulties we're likely to face next season then isn't it a huge gamble to try and find the next Eddie Howe? What is the likelihood of that?
If we're going to be struggling with a massively reduced squad and no money to do anything with it, is keeping a very good manager at this level (which is what Bruce is, despite what some on here might say) such a bad idea?

 

And as crazy as it is, if our money situation is really bad, then Mick McCarthy wouldn't be a bad appointment.

I just think some of us are on a different page when it comes to next year's goals and what the squad will look like. I can't see us flogging 80% of our squad for peanuts and having to rely on a squad made up of frees, loans and youngsters. I still think we will keep a lot of our team together, many of which are easily good enough to finish mid-table, and for that reason, I don't feel like we need a manager that will just stabilise us as a Championship team. I feel like we have the squad capable of that already, and would prefer someone to come in and build on it.

If we were to keep Bruce this season (which I'd be fine with, by the way. I see the merits of both approaches), then what will the plan be for the 2019/2020 season? Do we keep him again, because he's the best we can possibly imagine, or will we then look for a manager fitting into a long-term plan. The only difference will be that we'll have saved a bit of money with Jedinak, Whelan and Micah's contracts ending (if they're still here by then). I don't see the difference in him leaving then, compared to now. Unless people think we'll keep him past next season too!

[DCJonah]

3 hours ago, Jareth said:

Never change fella!

Wanting the best for my club and not being hypocritical. Don't worry I won't. Thanks. 

[DCJonah]

52 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I don't think anything has been proved, because no-one knows whether a completely different type of manager might have done better in the 1.5 seasons that Bruce has been here.

Likewise, if Bruce was to leave, no-one knows whether a manager like Mick McCarthy would do better next season than a younger manager who doesn't have 10+ seasons of mid-table Championship finishes under his belt.

My personal preference is that we look for our own Eddie Howe, David Wagner, Sean Dyche or Slavisa Jokanovic. There are managers out there with good reputations that would jump at the chance to manage Villa, and as risky an approach that may seen to some, I believe that we'll still have a squad capable of a mid-table finish, so, to me, the risk of the unknown is outweighed by the fact that you're planning more long-term. A young manager could start a proper rebuild, as opposed to a Bruce or McCarthy type who, in my opinion, seem to acheive a points tally in line with the size of their transfer budget.

Could not agree more. Excellent post. 

Has to be the way forward now we have lost our financial advantage.

[DCJonah]

35 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I just think some of us are on a different page when it comes to next year's goals and what the squad will look like. I can't see us flogging 80% of our squad for peanuts and having to rely on a squad made up of frees, loans and youngsters. I still think we will keep a lot of our team together, many of which are easily good enough to finish mid-table, and for that reason, I don't feel like we need a manager that will just stabilise us as a Championship team. I feel like we have the squad capable of that already, and would prefer someone to come in and build on it.

If we were to keep Bruce this season (which I'd be fine with, by the way. I see the merits of both approaches), then what will the plan be for the 2019/2020 season? Do we keep him again, because he's the best we can possibly imagine, or will we then look for a manager fitting into a long-term plan. The only difference will be that we'll have saved a bit of money with Jedinak, Whelan and Micah's contracts ending (if they're still here by then). I don't see the difference in him leaving then, compared to now. Unless people think we'll keep him past next season too!

Yep, again completely agree. 

What is the expectation of another year with bruce? Where people argue stability I just see us cementing our position here. 

And if people want Bruce for another few years to build something, what are they basing this on? Is this something Bruce has shown he can do on a more limited budget?

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, vreitti said:

Right, because there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever. Bruce no doubt would rather have relied on youth... in his quest to develop us a whole new style of play.... I suppose Hutton was retained without Bruce's consent!?

So what does he do have a completely inexperienced squad?

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, Taxahunter said:

Yes, it was Bruce who gave huge wages to Terry, Snodgrass, Lansbury, Whelan, Grabban, Hogan, so I think you will find that he also carries some of the blame.

Terry and snodgrass were both excellent signings so justified the wages.

Do you have the numbers for whelan and lansburys high wages ? As I know both cost less than 3m so that wasn't bad business.

Grabban was also a good signing look how many goals he scored? Not sure why bruce is getting blasted there.

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, Rob182 said:

I thought you would have seen Hutton's signing as another element of stability, and a safe pair of hands because of his experience, and he's surely a player that will help us avoid relegation, as you seem to think is our aim next year?

I would prefer bree at rb eith Elmo and him. Unless Taylor is being sold I don't like the thought of him and hutton being our only lbs

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Fixed for you, without the rose tinted spectacles.

This is an important point. For every Wagner or Jokanovic there are three or four Zola's or Montanier's or Zenga's or whatever. 

[Nabby]

12 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Terry and snodgrass were both excellent signings so justified the wages.

Do you have the numbers for whelan and lansburys high wages ? As I know both cost less than 3m so that wasn't bad business.

Grabban was also a good signing look how many goals he scored? Not sure why bruce is getting blasted there.

The latest Percy article in Telegraph has us saving 15 mil on wages with loans and Terry going so this idea Bruce spent little is bollox ..Snodgrass was a big signing for Westham so would be on 50k plus a week which evidently we covered on full.

 

Whelan Houriane Lansbury and Hogan have all been reported as on 30k or there abouts 

Bruce isn't reponsible for negotians but he requested those players and no way on earth he didn't know the salaries given out yet he hides behind his Summer spend to defend failure to get promotion 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Rob182 said:

I just think some of us are on a different page when it comes to next year's goals and what the squad will look like. I can't see us flogging 80% of our squad for peanuts and having to rely on a squad made up of frees, loans and youngsters. I still think we will keep a lot of our team together, many of which are easily good enough to finish mid-table, and for that reason, I don't feel like we need a manager that will just stabilise us as a Championship team. I feel like we have the squad capable of that already, and would prefer someone to come in and build on it.

If we were to keep Bruce this season (which I'd be fine with, by the way. I see the merits of both approaches), then what will the plan be for the 2019/2020 season? Do we keep him again, because he's the best we can possibly imagine, or will we then look for a manager fitting into a long-term plan. The only difference will be that we'll have saved a bit of money with Jedinak, Whelan and Micah's contracts ending (if they're still here by then). I don't see the difference in him leaving then, compared to now. Unless people think we'll keep him past next season too!

Yeah I agree. I think the difference is what we think next season will be.

The way I see it is if we have a squad who can push for promotion or COMFORTABLY stay in the league, then get rid of Bruce. I have no issue with that.

If our finances are so bad that we are going to have a severely depleted squad and staying in the league is genuinely in question, then keeping Bruce is a good option as I don't believe we'd attract anyone better given the situation.

 

I'm leaning towards the second scenario. As I keep saying in this thread, if the finances are better than I'm expecting then it's a totally different story.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

Yep, again completely agree. 

What is the expectation of another year with bruce? Where people argue stability I just see us cementing our position here. 

And if people want Bruce for another few years to build something, what are they basing this on? Is this something Bruce has shown he can do on a more limited budget?

Again, I don't think people (or most people) are thinking "I want to keep Bruce because he'll get us promoted next season or build something for the future"

They're thinking "I want to keep Bruce because we have no chance of promotion and I just want someone who can keep us in this league while we go bust"

[Stevo985]

15 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is an important point. For every Wagner or Jokanovic there are three or four Zola's or Montanier's or Zenga's or whatever. 

Indeed.

I don't know why in one breath people are slating Xia for choosing RDM and Bruce as managers, and in the next breath expecting him to pluck the next Eddie Howe out of thin air.

[A'Villan]

5 of the 8 players Bruce shipped out permanently went to top tier sides, so on one hand they were attractive prospects, on the other, they were bound to free up a large sum of wages.

I don't see what all the fuss is about, unless the point is merely that he freed up money so therefore he should be able to spend money. Which for me doesn't necessarily ring true if ultimately it was beyond our means. He did some good business for sure in Terry and Snodgrass but if the figures are true of what we're paying the like of Lansbury, Hourihane, Hogan, Whelan, Samba etc. are true than we simply overpaid for this level.

In response to an earlier post about his transfer dealings elsewhere, I am pretty confident he brought Stephane Sessegnon and Sulley Muntari to Sunderland.

[Rob182]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is an important point. For every Wagner or Jokanovic there are three or four Zola's or Montanier's or Zenga's or whatever. 

It's important to also note that when I said that I'd like us to find our own Howe/Wagner/Dyche, I wasn't going to mention a Zola or Zenga, because why would I want us to find one of them to call our own?

I think 95% of us know that there will be bad manager selections amongst the good, but there are many, many teams in this league and below us that cope perfectly fine without having a 'Been there, Done it' Steve Bruce type.

If Bruce walked right now, my choice (from my very limited knowledge) would be Mark Warburton. He's a manager that has travelled the world watching coaching sessions of some of the most successful sides. I think he did well at Brentford, respectable-to-'average' at Rangers and wasn't given enough time at Forest. Not to mention he:

a) is available.

b) would be much cheaper than Bruce.

c) would almost certainly be interested in coming here.

d) has had experience of balancing the books because Brentford had similar FFP issues to us when he was with them.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is an important point. For every Wagner or Jokanovic there are three or four Zola's or Montanier's or Zenga's or whatever. 

Some people just don't want to recognise that though.

They've convinced themselves that you could put a 7 year old kid in charge and they'd get better results than SB.

If it wasn't so tragic it would actually be funny.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, Nabby said:

The latest Percy article in Telegraph has us saving 15 mil on wages with loans and Terry going so this idea Bruce spent little is bollox ..Snodgrass was a big signing for Westham so would be on 50k plus a week which evidently we covered on full.

 

Whelan Houriane Lansbury and Hogan have all been reported as on 30k or there abouts 

Bruce isn't reponsible for negotians but he requested those players and no way on earth he didn't know the salaries given out yet he hides behind his Summer spend to defend failure to get promotion 

So he spent 15M on wages and what, £1M on transfer fees last summer - £16M total?

Forest have just spent £13m on one player.

Wolves did the same last season.

 

 

But apparently we had the best squad and had spent the most blah blah blah blah.......

[sexbelowsound]

1 hour ago, Nabby said:

The latest Percy article in Telegraph has us saving 15 mil on wages with loans and Terry going so this idea Bruce spent little is bollox ..Snodgrass was a big signing for Westham so would be on 50k plus a week which evidently we covered on full.

 

Whelan Houriane Lansbury and Hogan have all been reported as on 30k or there abouts 

Bruce isn't reponsible for negotians but he requested those players and no way on earth he didn't know the salaries given out yet he hides behind his Summer spend to defend failure to get promotion 

Did Bruce request all of them?

What does Steve Round actually do then?

[sheepyvillian]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Bruce or no Bruce, our standard of football will decrease next season. I'd bet a lot of money on it.

If Bruce is still in charge it definitely will decrease. Perish the thought. 

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, sheepyvillian said:

If Bruce is still in charge it definitely will decrease. Perish the thought. 

Yes it will. That's what i said.

[tinker]

We won't have the money to pay him off anyhow, suspect he's had a years notice given as well, £3m a year is fair chunk of money to pay him per year.

He may do well with his back against the wall, fingers crossed we can stabilize and rebuild in a sensible way over the next few seasons.