Steve Bruce

[TRO]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

Yeah lets see. 

We failed to go up with the resources he had, so what will he do to improve us with limited resources? And if we aren't looking to improve, what are we sticking with him for? 

What do you want from him TRO? You seem to not care what actually happens results wise, so what do you want from him? One more year? Are you happy for him to just stay regardless of how long we spend down here?

What is the plan behind sticking with steve bruce if we are taking promotion of the cards?

Ok. firstly The resources guarantee you nothing and they were more to do with squad than team....Those resources you mentioned were very good names on paper, but they had doubters too in terms of their age and fitness....until it all kicked off we was all unsure of how that would pan out.....you draw your own conclusions, I thought we lacked pace in general, but scored with experience...it was akinda trade off, that maybe didn't work.

The resources as get mentioned give you an edge imo, not much more, you have to prove it on the pitch.

What, do I want from him?......What I wanted from every manager I have watched under since Joe Mercer.....Gradual Improvement. I think he has given me that.

I seem to not care what happens results wise?.....I care passionately about results, but I am pragmatic enough to understand the game that I love is not predictable, it is played by Humans that too are unpredictable, just when you think they are consistent they let you down....by and large the best ones are selected by their consistency levels.....results cannot be guaranteed, its only the spectator that expects in this unpredictable game that finds themselves disappointed.....its part and parcel of becoming an experienced fan....don't get carried away with expectation if you value your happiness.

Am I happy for him to stay regardless of how long we stay down here?.....Well we all talked about the mess he inherited, little did we all know, the mess we are still in.....I think regardless is not a word i would be comfortable with....This is the thing for me.....while he has us improving and irrespective of the funds resources or any other inducements you think find their way on to the pitch......I will support him.

The plan........So far he has finished 13th and 4th, gradual improvement ,so I will be interested in what he does for next season.....do I expect promotion No, I don't expect it any season.....didn't expect it in any season, I have been watching Villa, too many variables for me....so nothing has changed, but gradual improvement gives me encouragement.....then bombshell.

We have now just found out that we have to part with many of our best players, that has obviously affected my deduction, but hey!  a new approach may throw up some pleasant surprises.

But equally what is the plan by introducing a new manager that has no idea of the storms ahead and goes in to it head first....It will take him half a season to get acclimatised, talk about wasted seasons?

Steve Bruce knows the warts 'n all.....He is best equipped to form some kind of semblance of order....where it will take us, I don't know any more than I know what a new man could do.

Changing manager now seems cosmetic to me and just giving satisfaction to a grieving heart that thought we was going up.....We are all disappointed and we owe it to ourselves to dust ourselves down and come out fighting and supporting our football people.

Other clubs are loving it, just loving it that we are down......let them know the 5 minutes is up......WE WILL BE BACK.

PS Them kids will get so much passionate support next season.

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

In an ideal world Brucey, we'd say thanks but your approach is not good enough, we were just too big a club for you, and you failed last season, just, but the failure still counts.  But.. since our financial peril has come to light, we could do without more uncertainty and chaos so you may stay with your safe, yet grubby pair of hands. Just keep us afloat until we can embezzle some more money out of China, then we can replace you no problem. Cheers guvna'

[Stevo985]

48 minutes ago, Dave J said:

I do Stevo - I don't understand the necessity to come across in the manner which you do on so many of your posts - however it is a forum and I constantly beat the drum about all posts should be welcome so on this basis - I would like to offer a virtual olive branch to you and move forward in a positive manner - yes I am sure going disagree with you on most things you post - but hey shall we be a little more grown up about it - deal ?

I don't need an olive branch. I have no issue with you and never have.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

I genuinely can't remember a time where people have wanted a manager to continue, with it being completely acceptable to go backwards and achieve nothing. 

Mon, Houllier, Mcleish, lambert and RDM never had it. Utterly amazed that steve bruce is the one to get it 

 

Nobody WANTS Bruce to continue.

Some people have observed that given the shit position we find ourselves in financially, keeping Bruce might not be such a bad idea. We will have a badly depleted squad and we're unlikely to be able to attract anyone worth their salt to manage the team given the conditions they have to work under. 

 

I would HAPPILY sack Bruce and replace him with a better manager. I just have absolutely no faith that we are in a position to attract anyone better. We're **** next season.

[Stevo985]

37 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

But are we? Hutton just got a new deal. 

At (reportedly) significantly reduced wages.

Retaining a 33 year old full back for less than he was on before hardly screams splashing the cash. It screams "we can't afford anyone better so don't let him go"

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, pintpotvilla said:

We do not know the make up of the side yet so how can you possibly say that! It may be your opinion,which i respect, but it certainly isn't a fact.

My opinion is that, if the finances are as bad as has been apparent in the past couple of weeks, then we'll struggle next season.

 

If our finances are better than they appear then it's a completely different story.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, romavillan said:

Of course we have to go for it again, the problem is that the man responsible for us wasting a great opportunity to go up is still in charge of getting us up. We were second after a great run then went off the boil, then it was back on with the win over wolves, then we fell apart, then we beat cardiff and couldn't capitalize again. The bad start, the horrible spell before/around xmas. There were multiple opportunities for us to do it, but we didn't.

Now we have to rebuild a team on a shoestring to go for it again, he couldn't get us playing well enough consistently enough with a better squad. What's going to change with a worse squad that means we'll go up?

Trust me....I am not trying to be disrespectful.

What if.....Keinan Davis and RHM take off.....mature in a season and do a Jack, thats not accounting for Kodj returning to form.

You use the word "better" and "worse"......They were better then and worse now.....thats just in your head....on paper you are right.....but we just don't know whats  going to happen.....we could inject more pace in to the team and bingo a surprising reaction.

at the moment, no one knows whats in store.....yes, I have seen some good players go, but I have seen that before in the past.....and I have been pleasantly surprised of what has been displayed on the pitch with the new guys.

I will wait and see.....and judge when I see us play, not 11 names on a team sheet.

 

[Dave J]

11 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't need an olive branch. I have no issue with you and never have.

I taking this as a yes then

[TRO]

13 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Not having a go at you directly Omar but I think VT needs a sticky at the top of the page about Dean Smith.

The Brentford set up is almost unique in football. Matthew Benham owns Brentford and Benham is a very succesful businessman. He studied at Oxford, worked in finance (including being a VP of Bank of America) then made a fortune with online gambling companies.

Brentford FC have a team of scouts and analysts and EVERY decision at the club is made by a consensus based on the results of the analytic data - even down to who is substituted and at what point in the game. 

Dean Smith runs the training drills and is head coach of Brentford. But the drills are chosen for him, the transfers are made by a completely different department and basically he isn't a 'football manager' in any old sense of the word. He is just the mouthpiece of the decisions based on the data and trys to keep team morale as high as possible.

Aston Villa is not set up this way. The 'manager' at Villa has a say in all of the decisions around the 1st team that I've mentioned. Training drills, picking the team, the substitutes, the setup, the transfers.

Dean Smith has never had to make any of those kind of decisions before. It would be an absolutely farcical decision to bring him here. It really would only slightly better than appointing a random Holte Ender to manage the club.

I know a lot of Villa fans seem to think that Dean Smith is an amazing manager based on watching his team beat Villa twice in the past two seasons and that they played some pretty football. However we also drew with them twice and finished 4th in the league compared to their position of 9th. 

If it were a choice between Bruce or Smith to manage Aston Villa with the way our club is setup to be managed, then the one choice that is guaranteed to end in absolute disaster is Dean Smith.

It Benham was interested in purchasing Villa it might be interesting to see how the system he has created would work at a club of our size and stature. But that would be the only person from Brentford's staff I would be open to coming to VP.

 

enlightening.

[DCJonah]

17 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nobody WANTS Bruce to continue.

Some people have observed that given the shit position we find ourselves in financially, keeping Bruce might not be such a bad idea. We will have a badly depleted squad and we're unlikely to be able to attract anyone worth their salt to manage the team given the conditions they have to work under. 

 

I would HAPPILY sack Bruce and replace him with a better manager. I just have absolutely no faith that we are in a position to attract anyone better. We're **** next season.

I disagree. I think there are clearly fans on here that want him to stay, not just happy for him to.

[DCJonah]

30 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ok. firstly The resources guarantee you nothing and they were more to do with squad than team....Those resources you mentioned were very good names on paper, but they had doubters too in terms of their age and fitness....until it all kicked off we was all unsure of how that would pan out.....you draw your own conclusions, I thought we lacked pace in general, but scored with experience...it was akinda trade off, that maybe didn't work.

The resources as get mentioned give you an edge imo, not much more, you have to prove it on the pitch.

What, do I want from him......What I wanted from every manager I have watched under since Joe Mercer.....Gradual Improvement. I think he has given me that.

I seem to not care what happens results wise?.....I care passionately about results, but I am pragmatic enough to understand the game that I love is not predictable, it is played by Humans that too are unpredictable, just when you think they are consistent they let you down....by and large the best ones are selected by their consistency levels.....results cannot be guaranteed, its only the spectator that expects in this unpredictable game that finds themselves disappointed.....its part and parcel of becoming an experienced fan....don't get carried away with expectation if you value your happiness.

Am I happy for him to stay regardless of how long we stay down here?.....Well we all talked about the mess he inherited, little did we all know, the mess we are still in.....I think regardless is not a word i would be comfortable with....This is the thing for me.....while he has us improving and irrespective of the funds resources or any other inducements you think find their way on to the pitch......I will support him.

The plan........So far he has finished 13th and 4th, gradual improvement ,so I will be interested in what he does for next season.....do I expect promotion No, I don't expect it any season.....didn't expect it in any season, I have been watching Villa, too many variables for me....so nothing has changed, but gradual improvement gives me encouragement.....then bombshell.

We have now just found out that we have to part with many of our best players, that has obviously affected my deduction, but hey!  a new approach may throw up some pleasant surprises.

But equally what is the plan by introducing a new manager that has no idea of the storms ahead and goes in to it head first....It will take him half a season to get acclimatised, talk about wasted seasons?

Steve Bruce knows the warts 'n all.....He is best equipped to form some kind of semblance of order....where it will take us, I don't know any more than I know what a new man could do.

Changing manager now seems cosmetic to me and just giving satisfaction to a grieving heart that thought we was going up.....We are all disappointed and we owe it to ourselves to dust ourselves down and come out fighting and supporting our football people.

Other clubs are loving it, just loving it that we are down......let them know the 5 minutes is up......WE WILL BE BACK.

PS Them kids will get so much passionate support next season.

We lost in the playoff final. So what does gradual improvement look like?

[DCJonah]

17 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

At (reportedly) significantly reduced wages.

Retaining a 33 year old full back for less than he was on before hardly screams splashing the cash. It screams "we can't afford anyone better so don't let him go"

Agree to some extent. But we are also resigning a starting player from last season. And with bree, elmo and taylor, hutton was not a necessity if we really are in the shit. 

[TRO]

On 13/06/2018 at 13:00, bannedfromHandV said:

Is it a good point though or is it just an easy statement to make?

Our team vs Wolves away:

Johnstone,

Elmohamady, Terry, Chester, Hutton,

Snodgrass, Hourihane, Whelan, Adomah,

Davis, Kodjia

Our team vs Wolves home:

Johnstone,

Elmohamady, Chester, Terry, Taylor,

Snodgrass, Jedinak, Hourihane, Adomah, Grealish,

Grabban

 

Our team vs Cardiff away:

Sam Johnstone 

Alan Hutton, James Chester, John Terry Neil Taylor, Ahmed Elmohamady

Henri Lansbury, Glenn Whelan, Joshua Onomah

Gabriel Agbonlahor, Scott Hogan

Our team vs Cardiff home:

 Johnstone,

Elmohamady, Chester, Jedinak, Tuanzebe,

Snodgrass, Whelan, Hourihane, Adomah, Grealish,

Grabban

 

So in those two away games, that we lost, we had 2 strikers on the pitch.

The two home games, which we won, we had 1 striker on the pitch.

But SB 'sets us up negatively and to lose away from home', right?

Its a point of consideration, a valid one.

but it could be any number of things....too many variables to mention.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

We lost in the playoff final. So what does gradual improvement look like?

4th is gradual improvement from 13th when I went to school.....next season could have been 1st until the financial bombshell, kinda put paid to that.

thats improvement.

We seem to be on a different expectation wavelength.

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I disagree. I think there are clearly fans on here that want him to stay, not just happy for him to.

In the same manner as some want him gone.

but some take the view....."a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush"

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

4th is gradual improvement from 13th when I went to school.....next season could have been 1st until the financial bombshell, kinda put paid to that.

thats improvement.

We seem to be on a different expectation wavelength.

So you said you don't expect gradual improvement then. Ready made excuses to go as well. 

[DCJonah]

Just now, TRO said:

In the same manner as some want him gone.

Yeah, not denying it one bit. I want him gone. 

[Rugeley Villa]

37 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nobody WANTS Bruce to continue.

Some people have observed that given the shit position we find ourselves in financially, keeping Bruce might not be such a bad idea. We will have a badly depleted squad and we're unlikely to be able to attract anyone worth their salt to manage the team given the conditions they have to work under. 

 

I would HAPPILY sack Bruce and replace him with a better manager. I just have absolutely no faith that we are in a position to attract anyone better. We're **** next season.

This is basically how I feel about it. Unless we can get a better manager in, then I'd rather stick with Bruce which will give us some stability. 

[dn1982]

32 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nobody WANTS Bruce to continue.

Some people have observed that given the shit position we find ourselves in financially, keeping Bruce might not be such a bad idea. We will have a badly depleted squad and we're unlikely to be able to attract anyone worth their salt to manage the team given the conditions they have to work under. 

 

I would HAPPILY sack Bruce and replace him with a better manager. I just have absolutely no faith that we are in a position to attract anyone better. We're **** next season.

If we arent going to to be anywhere near promotion next season surely now is the time to appoint a manager to build the team? Simply being Aston Villa will let us attract to play end Championship managers. Who wouldn't want to manage a team with little expectation and 30000+ crowds. Keeping Bruce has to be for a positive reason not because we are just putting up with him. I’d have Dean Smith. There’s Óscar Garcia out of work and a load others. 

I think we will keep Bruce because of the upheaval we have had already and we’re now running out of time to do anything else. If Bruce is still here at Xmas it will mean we are challenging but a slow start and the knives will be out early. IF he thought last year was pressure he’s in for a shock. 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's comparable because you've taken the last two years of SB's managerial career and said that as he didnt achieve his top goal (promotion) he is a failure. 

Pretty sure Mourinho's top goal at United has been to win the league the last two seasons, which he's failed to do. 

Hope that helps. 

A more comparable situation would probably be Pep at City due to the nature of their squad and transfer dealings, and even then the expectation for a team trying to win the league is not the same as promotion.

Promotion is do or die. Not to mention there are 3 ways to do it: finish 1st, finish 2nd or win the playoffs. Steve Bruce failed to achieve it either way. Twice. Our main objective this season was promotion or bust (which as it turns out, is what is currently happening). Very rarely does a top flight club, not even Real Madrid expect a title in one season from a new  manager.

In Mouronho's case I would say the expectation would be 3 seasons to win the title, so to answer your question...yes it does look like he's failing his objective. I would be very surprised if he is here at the start of the 2019/2020 season if they don't win the title next season.

Tl;dr: Yes, Steve Bruce has failed his objective. He has also vastly improved us in the process. Both things can be true.