Steve Bruce

[sne]

Unless we somehow have managed to sign an entire squad who are footbally retarded I maintain that we have a coaching issue.

Bruce is fine at this level (he's not my kind of manager and has his limitations, but he's not totally incompetent) but I have huge doubts about or assistant manager who apparently is handling training and our other coaching staff.

They might also be fine, but I don't think they complement Bruce to the squads benefit.

But as pointed out, this is all an somewhat educated guess from me.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

TRO I wasn’t talking about the current situation, but the situation if, a big if, we were promoted. 

This current squad would not last 5 minutes in the prem.

I know what you are talking about......and you are not wrong, i repeat you are not wrong.

but to get it right, is not so easy......I hear from some fans get rid of Bruce and get Dean Smith.

Trust me......Dean Smith will never, never even come close to the reputation in the game Steve Bruce has had player or manager......do you honestly think we would have JT in the circumstances.

Aston Villa is a big club that has experienced colossal setbacks and poor decisions on the field and off, that is not going to be wiped away in a 12 months.

In my honest opinion......I think we have a team with defensive capabilities of the top 6......I think we have offensive capabilities of mid table.

[VillaChris]

32 minutes ago, TRO said:

Chris you could well be right, but I don't think the solution is that simple.

you can have the best coaches in the world, but if the players can't execute their instructions whats the point.

You could get a manager to do all that.....and something that we had, goes missing.....I share your frustration.

I could come on here and have a rant about our poor play and it is poor, but unless we are going to get a shed load of money, appoint a top class coach and get FFP suspended, I don't see the answer.

I remember Neil Warnock's name being ridiculed on here, when we was changing earlier managers, but the so called technical ones like Remi & RDM have not done anything either.

Its tricky.

I don't profess to know the answer, but what i do know is......we ain't going anywhere with a depleted forward department in the squad......its a major,major problem.

Which complicated instructions are the players not able to take on board then?

No one with a straight face can see Steve Bruce teams at SHA, Wigan, Sunderland, Hull and here for a year play a complex system/style of play that needs hours and hours of coaching on the training pitch.

To me it's just a basic keep things tight at the back, get the ball up top quickly and Kodjia (last season), Davis and Adomah (this season) will create and score a goal and then we can sit back and defend that one for a bit.

When you look at his signings in January then Hourihane was heartbeat of a Barnsley team and all the play went through him. They played good football and were very competitive in this division last season. Hogan was regularly getting on the end of the free flowing moves Brentford were producing.

Didn't someone on here post a while ago that Hogan was shocked at how primitive our coaching methods were compared to Brentford.

The obvious issue in our last few years in the prem was he were so far gone and out of our depth at that level that any changes made by a Remi Garde were too late and made little difference. We had a poor set of players for premier league level bar Benteke, Delph and Vlaar.

In the championship given the players we have I don't see the same excuse.

Edited December 11, 2017 by VillaChris

[Dave J]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Bruce was a lot more wanted than Warnock, which was my point.

Not in my house - as I say both yesterday’s people who have not moved with the times. Warnock however  is a very intelligent guy, agricultural as well in style of play  imo  but equally objectionable - Bruce is more more palatable for many reasons - but is not what I wish for Aston Villa going forward. I have no qualms about him going now and if we do go up it will be inspite of him being our manager and not because of some wonderfully hatched plan between him and his coaching team - I do see it’s entirely plausible we could stumble over the finishing line - but that’s exactly what it will be .

As others have said I would like a manager with a cohesive and forward thinking attitude to the game in 2017 not stuck in the past again imo 

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Really, okay.

So should we sack players, coaches and general staff members for daring to try and further their careers too?

Maybe we should have sacked Benteke instead of giving him a new contract back when he was 'speaking to Spurs.......

I work in recruitment, that's a ridiculous stance to take and one that ensures a crappy working culture.

No it’s not - not if it is the manager - who is supposed to instill leadership, loyalty, integrity into his team, whilst at the same time talking to other teams - I think that’s pretty offensive in my view 

[romavillan]

46 minutes ago, TRO said:

Chris you could well be right, but I don't think the solution is that simple.

you can have the best coaches in the world, but if the players can't execute their instructions whats the point.

You could get a manager to do all that.....and something that we had, goes missing.....I share your frustration.

I could come on here and have a rant about our poor play and it is poor, but unless we are going to get a shed load of money, appoint a top class coach and get FFP suspended, I don't see the answer.

I remember Neil Warnock's name being ridiculed on here, when we was changing earlier managers, but the so called technical ones like Remi & RDM have not done anything either.

Its tricky.

I don't profess to know the answer, but what i do know is......we ain't going anywhere with a depleted forward department in the squad......its a major,major problem.

Hard to see what else Remi could have done, he was well and truly stuffed by the club. Was RDM classed as a technical coach? Very much a coach made in Britain if you ask me. 

The bold bit though, the best coaches in the world improve players. Our players are by all accounts easily good enough for this level. A lot of them have played in good modern, technical passing sides. Lansbury, Hogan, Hourihane... you can't tell me Grealish wouldn't thrive from playing in a good fast passing, footballing side. The best coaches understand a players limitations and make sure they aren't asking a player to do something impossible, and get the best out of them. I'm not sure which of our players are not able to execute Bruce's instructions, I'm fairly sure though that over a year's worth of Bruce's instructions, a full close season included, have not produced a side that looks good with the ball. 

We have looked good a few times, but incredibly rarely, it's the exception and not the rule. That shows the players can do it, the offside "goal" from Davis against Ipswich (I think) was great football for example. So I'd look more to the manager and his coaches at that point. Bruce said himself that the problems against Millwall were to do with us just giving the ball away and being sloppy and slow on the ball. Lots of people have been saying the same things for months, me included, so hopefully now he's publicly saying the same things he might do something about it?

[TheStagMan]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Look, Gary Rowett was brought up as an example of a big decision made by a club that was already doing well, i.e. not someone you would naturally look at and think, let's sack that guy, he's doing crap.

I simply highlighted that that decision backfired big time, if you want to debate that with me got for it but the facts speak for themselves, under Rowett they were doing well, since the day they sacked him they've gone backwards, big time.

Ok, that's fine, as an example of a decision going badly. However that does not mean that sacking Bruce would go as badly for us. Plus in relative terms Rowett was achieving far more at SHA than Bruce is here, so to me It is an even less logical comparison. 

 

The other part of my point is that performances and achievement were not the whole reason he was sacked.

What would it take for you to want Bruce gone?

Edited December 11, 2017 by TheStagMan

[TRO]

53 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Which complicated instructions are the players not able to take on board then?

No one with a straight face can see Steve Bruce teams at SHA, Wigan, Sunderland, Hull and here for a year play a complex system/style of play that needs hours and hours of coaching on the training pitch.

To me it's just a basic keep things tight at the back, get the ball up top quickly and Kodjia (last season), Davis and Adomah (this season) will create and score a goal and then we can sit back and defend that one for a bit.

When you look at his signings in January then Hourihane was heartbeat of a Barnsley team and all the play went through him. They played good football and were very competitive in this division last season. Hogan was regularly getting on the end of the free flowing moves Brentford were producing.

Didn't someone on here post a while ago that Hogan was shocked at how primitive our coaching methods were compared to Brentford.

The obvious issue in our last few years in the prem was he were so far gone and out of our depth at that level that any changes made by a Remi Garde were too late and made little difference. We had a poor set of players for premier league level bar Benteke, Delph and Vlaar.

In the championship given the players we have I don't see the same excuse.

I was not intimating there is any complicated instructions, but i have seen during games.

• us unable to compete for an aerial ball
• bereft of any intelligent offensive running
• a failure to play on the shoulder of the last defender
• our unfair share of unforced errors
• an inability to steer clear of physical contact
• a questionable first touch in some players
• questionable decision making when launching a raid.
• a failure to connect with any nous to corners

i am not suggesting the manager is blameless.....but this notion that all the players are good enough is not shared by me.

for sure we are missing our key players.....but any manager would struggle to deal with a depleted strike force.

If we are to criticise Steve Bruce, it would be helpful if it could be explained in more detail exactly what the criticism is.

The best of managers cannot negate a lack of experienced strikers, if its down to him that we started with 5 then fair do's......but its no good moaning about him if his hands are tied.

I don't see our problems as single dimensional, sorry, i think its a cumulation of many factors.....both on and off the field.

you mention Brentford.....but where are they in the league?....every player that has left them has had an iffy time at their new clubs......Dean smith will never achieve what steve Bruce has in the game, so for me a lot of single dimensional hot air is spoken on that subject.....lets just look at the facts Brentford have 33 goals for and 30 against....we have 29 for and 19 against.

1. Considering we are a totally negative team in most narratives, how come we are only 4 goals behind this free flowing nemisis.

2. Should they not be envious of of our defensive record witk an 11 goal disparity to the good.

There is no doubt in my mind Chris, that we should be playing a more convincing brand of football, but having said that i am well aware of our strengths and weaknesses....we would do well to be aware of the weaknesses of teams we hold up as a an example of what we should be.

 

 

I 

[TheStagMan]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I was not intimating there is any complicated instructions, but i have seen during games.

• us unable to compete for an aerial ball
• bereft of any intelligent offensive running
• a failure to play on the shoulder of the last defender
• our unfair share of unforced errors
• an inability to steer clear of physical contact
• a questionable first touch in some players
• questionable decision making when launching a raid.
• a failure to connect with any nous to corners

i am not suggesting the manager is blameless.....but this notion that all the players are good enough is not shared by me.

for sure we are missing our key players.....but any manager would struggle to deal with a depleted strike force.

If we are to criticise Steve Bruce, it would be helpful if it could be explained in more detail exactly what the criticism is.

The best of managers cannot negate a lack of experienced strikers, if its down to him that we started with 5 then fair do's......but its no good moaning about him if his hands are tied.

I don't see our problems as single dimensional, sorry, i think its a cumulation of many factors.....both on and off the field.

you mention Brentford.....but where are they in the league?....every player that has left them has had an iffy time at their new clubs......Dean smith will never achieve what steve Bruce has in the game, so for me a lot of single dimensional hot air is spoken on that subject.....lets just look at the facts Brentford have 33 goals for and 30 against....we have 29 for and 19 against.

1. Considering we are a totally negative team in most narratives, how come we are only 4 goals behind this free flowing nemisis.

2. Should they not be envious of of our defensive record witk an 11 goal disparity to the good.

There is no doubt in my mind Chris, that we should be playing a more convincing brand of football, but having said that i am well aware of our strengths and weaknesses....we would do well to be aware of the weaknesses of teams we hold up as a an example of what we should be.

 

 

I 

So basically you are saying that the players we have are not good enough to be challenging at the top of this league? 

 

Also, how do you know that Dean Smith will not go on to achieve more as a manager than Bruce.

[TRO]

47 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Hard to see what else Remi could have done, he was well and truly stuffed by the club. Was RDM classed as a technical coach? Very much a coach made in Britain if you ask me. 

The bold bit though, the best coaches in the world improve players. Our players are by all accounts easily good enough for this level. A lot of them have played in good modern, technical passing sides. Lansbury, Hogan, Hourihane... you can't tell me Grealish wouldn't thrive from playing in a good fast passing, footballing side. The best coaches understand a players limitations and make sure they aren't asking a player to do something impossible, and get the best out of them. I'm not sure which of our players are not able to execute Bruce's instructions, I'm fairly sure though that over a year's worth of Bruce's instructions, a full close season included, have not produced a side that looks good with the ball. 

We have looked good a few times, but incredibly rarely, it's the exception and not the rule. That shows the players can do it, the offside "goal" from Davis against Ipswich (I think) was great football for example. So I'd look more to the manager and his coaches at that point. Bruce said himself that the problems against Millwall were to do with us just giving the ball away and being sloppy and slow on the ball. Lots of people have been saying the same things for months, me included, so hopefully now he's publicly saying the same things he might do something about it?

He can't play for them.

do you mean to tell me these, players can't get their head to a corner kick, without the intense work of coaches at Bodymoor Heath.....are you saying they need be told, guided or coached in to a first touch......are you telling me they need instruction to be able to win an aerial ball......these same players that knew how to do it at other clubs.

part of being a good player....is work rate, desire, intensity, will, self belief.....much like aiden o'brien (22)displayed for Millwall' yes he was aggressive at times, so what.

IF you say we do it at times, then equally the  manager must be doing it too.....its just inconsistency is the enemy.

You say our players are easily good enough.....that is very subjective.

The difference with my argument and yours is this.....you see the same issues as I do( presumably) you blame the manager for just about every issue.

I accept that the manager is ultimately responsible, but that is subtley different from blame.....I accept that he is mainly responsible for the personel( recruitment) and I accept that he is responsible for selection and tactics......but when they cross that white line i see individual issues, that i find hard to directly blame him for.

I find it difficult to accept some of the things i see in our players performane to suggest that we have this kinda superior squad to the rest, certain players yes, full team NO.

We have one major weakness any manager would struggle with our forward dep't

just simply not strong enough.

[dn1982]

14 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

So basically you are saying that the players we have are not good enough to be challenging at the top of this league? 

 

Also, how do you know that Dean Smith will not go on to achieve more as a manager than Bruce.

Haven’t Bruce and Smith won exactly the same? Nothing? Has Bruce ever won a Championship? I know he has promotions but I don’t remember a Bruce side running away with this league or any other. Smith has his team playing football that Bruce can only dream about. What could he do with better players?

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

So basically you are saying that the players we have are not good enough to be challenging at the top of this league? 

 

Also, how do you know that Dean Smith will not go on to achieve more as a manager than Bruce.

How do you know, he will or could.

Well, lets just remember this post.....and see if he does.

are you saying that the issues i have raised are not true in your opinion?......because if you agree, no many are not good enough, some obviously are.....but especially on the offensive side of the squad, we are over valued in some eyes imo.

Edited December 11, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Haven’t Bruce and Smith won exactly the same? Nothing? Has Bruce ever won a Championship? I know he has promotions but I don’t remember a Bruce side running away with this league or any other. Smith has his team playing football that Bruce can only dream about. What could he do with better players?

Well, i don't suppose David Wagner is bothered how he went up, you still get the dough, which is pretty important in my eyes.

its cheap to say, SB has acheived nothing.....go and tell the pundits in the industry that, they would laugh at you.

you know, i thought the footbal just lately has been very poor, but arguments like yours make me defend more than i normally would such is the intransigence of it.

where was you hiding when we was losing every week, it was as predictable as beatles record getting to no 1..... resillience was a word so far removed from our vocabulary it was a joke.....do you remember those dark, dingy, miserable days.

for sure we are struggling at present, but to suggest some other manager with vague credentials is going to come in with FFP like japanese Knotwood around our necks and a very uncertain budget to buy.....is wishful thinking at best Imo.

[VillaChris]

Come on TRO as much as I enjoy reading and respect your posts, comparing us to Brentford and saying why aren't they better than us....they've spent most of the last 30-40 years in the bottom two professional divisions, they play in a 10k ground, they sell their best players every year (Andre Gray, Scott Hogan, Jota etc) and are punching above their way being mid table in this division considering they're only one of about 4-5 clubs never to have played in the premier league.

They have to find different ways of staying up and being competitive in this division than just going out and spending 30 odd million each summer so attention to detail on the training ground is very important.

Anyone who's watched us play them three times at this level can't say they're not well coached e.g. Ryan Woods sitting infront of the back 4 and dictating player which is a tactic we can't seem to nulify.

As for your more general points...every team makes unforced individual errors, Man City yesterday with Delph miscontrolling and also the goals recently they've conceded from corners. And they're the best team in this country by miles. So don't think that's a realistic expectation.

A few others are because Davis is still raw and inexperienced at this level so that's why the ball dosen't always stick much upfront.

Another would be selection. Take Hutton. Loved by the crowd and in fairness having a decent season. Technically proficient he ain't though as all the countless crosses into the Holte End and poor touches when running with the ball down the years indicate.

He plays because he's reliable and SB has said his attitude around the case is first class. James Bree seems to have completely disappeared off the face of the earth after a couple of dodgy games earlier on in the season.

Surely with good coaching on the training ground Bree could become a good quality RB at this level like he was on the way to being at Barnsley but it all seems like a bit too much hard work to me when you can just go out and get another RB like we did with AEM.

[Vive_La_Villa]

28 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Haven’t Bruce and Smith won exactly the same? Nothing? Has Bruce ever won a Championship? I know he has promotions but I don’t remember a Bruce side running away with this league or any other. Smith has his team playing football that Bruce can only dream about. What could he do with better players?

I'm sure we'll find out one day.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, sne said:

Unless we somehow have managed to sign an entire squad who are footbally retarded I maintain that we have a coaching issue.

Bruce is fine at this level (he's not my kind of manager and has his limitations, but he's not totally incompetent) but I have huge doubts about or assistant manager who apparently is handling training and our other coaching staff.

They might also be fine, but I don't think they complement Bruce to the squads benefit.

But as pointed out, this is all an somewhat educated guess from me.

The thing is we simply don't know either way.

but would you reasonably expect John Terry to be hanging around with a bunch of donuts......He has been turning up carrying his injury to away games, thats a first, as far as i know, most of them are in selfridges or Harvey nicks.

It does not strike me as an indication from an experienced high profile player, that our beyond the scenes guys are dumbos or complacent.

He may be being paid a lot, but he wouldn't do that if he thought everyone else is half soaked.

[vreitti]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

do you mean to tell me these, players can't get their head to a corner kick, without the intense work of coaches at Bodymoor Heath.....are you saying they need be told, guided or coached in to a first touch......are you telling me they need instruction to be able to win an aerial ball......these same players that knew how to do it at other clubs.

I wholeheartedly agree, they certainly should be able to do all these elementary things, being professional footballers and all. The million pound question is then, why the heck aren't they delivering for the club? For the manager? 

If neither ability nor coaching is an issue, what is then? Just poor attitude? Do we still have problems 'at the core' of the club? Problems that run far deeper than the clueless manager in charge!?

I just don't buy it. For me, I'm sorry, but I can only see the one major problem at the club. 

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Come on TRO as much as I enjoy reading and respect your posts, comparing us to Brentford and saying why aren't they better than us....they've spent most of the last 30-40 years in the bottom two professional divisions, they play in a 10k ground, they sell their best players every year (Andre Gray, Scott Hogan, Jota etc) and are punching above their way being mid table in this division considering they're only one of about 4-5 clubs never to have played in the premier league.

They have to find different ways of staying up and being competitive in this division than just going out and spending 30 odd million each summer so attention to detail on the training ground is very important.

Anyone who's watched us play them three times at this level can't say they're not well coached e.g. Ryan Woods sitting infront of the back 4 and dictating player which is a tactic we can't seem to nulify.

As for your more general points...every team makes unforced individual errors, Man City yesterday with Delph miscontrolling and also the goals recently they've conceded from corners. And they're the best team in this country by miles. So don't think that's a realistic expectation.

A few others are because Davis is still raw and inexperienced at this level so that's why the ball dosen't always stick much upfront.

Another would be selection. Take Hutton. Loved by the crowd and in fairness having a decent season. Technically proficient he ain't though as all the countless crosses into the Holte End and poor touches when running with the ball down the years indicate.

He plays because he's reliable and SB has said his attitude around the case is first class. James Bree seems to have completely disappeared off the face of the earth after a couple of dodgy games earlier on in the season.

Surely with good coaching on the training ground Bree could become a good quality RB at this level like he was on the way to being at Barnsley but it all seems like a bit too much hard work to me when you can just go out and get another RB like we did with AEM.

Chris, I am not dismissing your view, far from it.....but respectfully its speculation, as is mine....But at the moment Cardiff are better than us, with little money spent and a manager reviled by many on this site.....so comparisons can be selective......Leicester won the premier league with players costing less than ours.....so money at this level needs to be well spent and we haven't done that, so the advantage of the that is negated and subsequently, mythical.

as for Brentford, i was not the original poster using them as an example or using Dean Smith as a xmas stocking filler....i was just following it on.

I also understand the mitigation surrounding Keinan, without his help, we wouldn't be where we are......but as a club, its not enough.

you can talk about style of play.......we can't even meet a header or get one on target from a corner.......corner, after corner, after corner.....no more likely to come close.....we just recyle the ball at the moment until the clock runs down.

and thats just picking out one issue, from many......nothing to do with style or brand of football.

You could be right.....They could be doing sod all at BMH, in which case that is down to the manager.....but do we know that?....would JT be party to that?.....would SR be party to that?

I think offensively we are a mid table team......only the resillience and defence is giving us any hope at all.

Edited December 11, 2017 by TRO

[sne]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

The thing is we simply don't know either way.

but would you reasonably expect John Terry to be hanging around with a bunch of donuts......He has been turning up carrying his injury to away games, thats a first, as far as i know, most of them are in selfridges or Harvey nicks.

It does not strike me as an indication from an experienced high profile player, that our beyond the scenes guys are dumbos or complacent.

He may be being paid a lot, but he wouldn't do that if he thought everyone else is half soaked.

I certainly would expect Terry to be professional enough to not walk out on us and the contract even if things were not up to the expected standard.

And for that part I think the defensive part is far better than the attacking part, hence why I stated that the coaching set up might not be an ideal paring with Bruce as they are all defense oriented.

[VillaChris]

I'm surprised you're pointing out set pieces as a problem. In the SB tenure so far that's something I wouldn't criticise too much. We scored a fair few from them from James Chester last season (Derby-Reading at home) and we haven't conceded that many from them although John Terry being out and Johnstone starting flapping from them hasn't helped.

If Terry had stayed fit we'd have scored a fair few more of them.

It's obviously not as good as the MON days (what is) when we scored from a set piece seemingly every game but at the same time we also had spells under McLeish and especially Lambert when we were terrible defending corners.