Steve Bruce

[RimmyJimmer]

21 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I cringe when I read posts like this because we as fans should expect more given the resources we have (which is part and parcel of being a big club). There's a disturbing lack of standards among some fans and it's no surprise that those with such low standards are the ones more likely to back the abysmal job that Bruce is doing.

I'd argue my standards are as high as you think yours are. I want villa to be back in the premiere league. I think we should be higher than where we stand now. So whats the difference between me and you?

Patience and realism. Nowt to do with standards.

[decamoto]

15 hours ago, VillaCas said:

I don't want to get into a long to and fro with you but I have to take issue with a number of your points

Firstly, Terry, Whelan and Samba are far from minimal cost outlays - their wages will be absolutely sky high for the championship. I don't want to debate their individual merits but if your idea is rebuilding that money could have been spent on younger players with far more potential or maybe keeping and developing existing players like Baker

Secondly, it's normally the Bruce Outers who get accused of using any stick to beat him, but the idea that the cost of their wages can be recouped by additional transfer fees for young players influenced by them is a massive step in the other direction - ie finding any spurious reason to defend Bruce.  I don't doubt that Terry et al are having some positive influence but I would be staggered if the was any monetary value to that at all

Thirdly, I don't know where to start with your assertion that a progessive-type manager is a risk too far whilst Bruce has had us in the lower reaches of the championship for his entire reign - if Bruce is the man who will be defining the "Villa Way" we are in a world of trouble

Terry 2m (4m if we go up), Samba was a free with wages only (2m?) with Whelan the only arguable bigger spend due to his sign on fee. When you say potential, that's all it is potential. For every good player there's a Bjarnason esque player. You know what you're getting with those 3. Baker is 26 and isn't exactly tearing up trees at Bristol. I'm not saying that this was a better way to go I can just see the logic in their thinking  

You miss my point about Bruce. I'm honestly not sure about Bruce long (even medium) term and don't want him managing us in the Prem. I agree that if he's 'the Villa way' long term we're in trouble. I keep hearing people talk about progressive type managers though and for every Wagner there's a Lambert. I don't believe that this is a gamble worth taking a year ago (or at this point) which is where our opinions differ. 

[TheStagMan]

17 hours ago, RimmyJimmer said:

19 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

 

I agree.

[TheStagMan]

11 hours ago, TRO said:

Well to be fair Steve Bruce has had a plan too, whether its to everyones likeing is a completely different argument.

He said his first task, phase 1 if you like, was to stop the rot and create some resilience, make us hard to beat.....then when the time is right, which is of course debatable, is to start to play more expansively, which i think is now.phase 2

now if you thinkt that is a load of Bar lux thats fine.

but that sounds like a bit of a plan to me.

if it all turns to pot, then fine.....new man.

That's not a plan, that is a set of objectives.

A plan has details and a methodology for achieving those objectives.

Unless you count, "lump it to Kodjia and hope he does something, then rely on Gabby when Kodjia is away" as a plan then Steve Bruce really does not have one. 

[decamoto]

15 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

>£3m in salary plus signing on fee is not a "minimal cost outlay", Whelan also won't be cheap in terms of salary. Again, we need substantial income to justify the overall wage bill, which by all accounts is enormous. This makes promotion all the more paramount with parachute payments declining geometrically. 

I was against the Terry signing at the time but I've changed my mind in the months since. I think it's a worthwhile investment as opposed to an investment in potential. 

For Whelan you knew what you were getting. I would have liked someone else (and cheaper) but can see the logic.

They are both what I would class as 'safe' signings. Clearly the club are pursuing a 'risk averse' strategy until the parachute payments run out. You pay a premium for this though I don't think that either break the bank. Sure we got 5m for Westwood to put it in perspective. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by decamoto

[TrentVilla]

8 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

It's really good to hear that we will play more expansive and with two strikers. However what he says just puzzels me.

If he wants to play 4-4-2, why did we use the whole pre season to work on a 4-4-1-1? And how come that he now thinks that the squad is capable of playing 4-4-2 and more expansive, compared to a month ago?

 

And I thought the whole pre-season was about Grealish and him being central to how we play, well that wasn't going to be in a 442.

The guys an absolute liar.

[VillaCas]

24 minutes ago, decamoto said:

Terry 2m (4m if we go up), Samba was a free with wages only (2m?) with Whelan the only arguable bigger spend due to his sign on fee. When you say potential, that's all it is potential. For every good player there's a Bjarnason esque player. You know what you're getting with those 3. Baker is 26 and isn't exactly tearing up trees at Bristol. I'm not saying that this was a better way to go I can just see the logic in their thinking  

You miss my point about Bruce. I'm honestly not sure about Bruce long (even medium) term and don't want him managing us in the Prem. I agree that if he's 'the Villa way' long term we're in trouble. I keep hearing people talk about progressive type managers though and for every Wagner there's a Lambert. I don't believe that this is a gamble worth taking a year ago (or at this point) which is where our opinions differ. 

But wasn't your original point that we needed a safe pair of hands and patience whilst that person (Bruce) rebuilt and crafted the (as you put it) the "Villa Way"??? Now you're saying that should he gain promotion this season (he won't) you wouldn't want him as manager in the PL!! Hardly seems patient and the ideal approach to building a dynasty which was your stated goal

Also, lm not debating the relative VFM of Terry, Whelan and Samba, I'm saying that if you are talking about rebuilding and developing a whole new squad and approach, which again was your original point, filling the squad with players near the end of their career seems entirely the wrong way to go about it

I absolutely agree with your view of Bjarnson, but again it was Bruce, your preferred builder of the "Villa Way", who signed him

[Eastie]

10 hours ago, Dick said:

I was acting my name tbh, don't take life so seriously. Enjoy what Dick does to you, Dick likes to play.

[decamoto]

3 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

But wasn't your original point that we needed a safe pair of hands and patience whilst that person (Bruce) rebuilt and crafted the (as you put it) the "Villa Way"??? Now you're saying that should he gain promotion this season (he won't) you wouldn't want him as manager in the PL!! Hardly seems patient and the ideal approach to building a dynasty which was your stated goal

Also, lm not debating the relative VFM of Terry, Whelan and Samba, I'm saying that if you are talking about rebuilding and developing a whole new squad and approach, which again was your original point, filling the squad with players near the end of their career seems entirely the wrong way to go about it

I absolutely agree with your view of Bjarnson, but again it was Bruce, your preferred builder of the "Villa Way", who signed him

No my point was that he was a safe pair of hands while the club (Round, Wyness et al) decided what the Villa way would be. I would hope that at the end of the season, promotion or not, we would have done sufficient work in the 2 years since Xia took over to have established what this Villa way or playing, recruiting etc is. Maybe it will take longer than 2 but I hope not. As I said in another post if Bruce is the 'Villa way' long term on the playing side of things, then we're in trouble but short term, I think he's the right man until the Villa way is established in the background.

Again these players are the short term part of a longer term plan. It's a risk averse initial strategy. You knew what you're getting with those players. We disagree on the VFM aspect fair enough, but there was no one for the younger lads to look up to bar say Jedinak in the squad (Gabby says hi).

I think that we will reap the rewards of these signings longer term but it will be hard to quantify an exact monetary amount. If our younger players e.g. Davis green o'hare etc come through and make the grade we are effectively rebuilding our squad,. I think they will only be made better by having the Terrys etc around the place (increasing sell on value, better chance of promotion etc) which can only be a good thing. 

[peterms]

2 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

The guys an absolute liar.

In fairness, he did say in his interview "In my day, twenty year ago..."

[Keener window-cleaner]

2 hours ago, Eastie said:

Because kodjia is back and snodgrass has arrived were the reasons he gave yesterday along with the emergence of Davis 

To me it still doesn't add up, if one of those aren't available, will he then revert to the old sitting-back tactics or will he keep the expansive 4-4-2?

(By the way I still find it hard to accept that 4-4-2 is considered to be an attacking formation. In my world that is the basic formation. Three up front - and then I'm not talking about playing wing backs as forwards -  is an attacking formation to me)

[OutByEaster?]

2 hours ago, decamoto said:

Terry 2m (4m if we go up), Samba was a free with wages only (2m?) with Whelan the only arguable bigger spend due to his sign on fee. When you say potential, that's all it is potential. 

The issue I have with these signings is that when they go, this money is dead - there's no resale, no recycling of the money - if we'd paid a couple of million for a risky twenty year old and it hadn't paid off, we'd have been able to recoup most of it and go again. Next summer could be really difficult, we're not out of the woods on FFP and we'll need to fill lots of holes in the squad. I think it's particularly important for a club in our position to keep an eye on our residual squad value.

 

[Keener window-cleaner]

7 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Dunno. It!s a real puzzle, isn't it? Manager tries a system. It doesn't work too well. So tries something else. This is unheard of in the entire history of football.

Putting the sarcasm aside, I think you are right in that it hasn't worked too well. I think it has been confusing with the different systems that Bruce has tried, and by the look of it on the pitch, in the majority of the games the players seems to have thought the same.

Anyhow, as I said I'm glad we will play more expansive and I'm looking forward to that.   

[Grasshopper]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The issue I have with these signings is that when they go, this money is dead - there's no resale, no recycling of the money - if we'd paid a couple of million for a risky twenty year old and it hadn't paid off, we'd have been able to recoup most of it and go again. Next summer could be really difficult, we're not out of the woods on FFP and we'll need to fill lots of holes in the squad. I think it's particularly important for a club in our position to keep an eye on our residual squad value.

 

If we are still in this league next season we will be looking to plug the following holes

1 - new owner if DrT gives up (Cue Steven Hollis and Club for sale take-2)

2 - New board (Wyness & Round)

3 - New Manager

4 - New coaching staff

5 - 2x CB

6 - 2x LB

7 - 1x RW

8 - 1x LW

9 - 1x CM

10 - 1x SF

Alarming

 

[Grasshopper]

.....did I mention Ffp & Parachute payments?

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

 

3 hours ago, Eastie said:

Because kodjia is back and snodgrass has arrived were the reasons he gave yesterday along with the emergence of Davis 

And if they get injured, the team starts to look like morse code?

He is so full of shit it's unbearable.

Edited September 23, 2017 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[foreveryoung]

On 21/09/2017 at 06:49, Jareth said:

You're ranting about Bruce's team, that game was the B team, and the reason attendance was so low. Anyone with their eyes open would have known he was going to make lots of changes. The attacks your are levelling on the manager are about the first team and last time they played it was 0-3 away from home. And all this talking up tension between manager and players, elphick and mcoremack do not like the manager, hogan went off injured, but all the determined Bruce out fan can see is their own vision of the future that they want so badly that everything else they see must fit in. 

Lets have a chat after the Forest game, with the totally organised first 11.

[terrytini]

11 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

It's really good to hear that we will play more expansive and with two strikers. However what he says just puzzels me.

If he wants to play 4-4-2, why did we use the whole pre season to work on a 4-4-1-1? And how come that he now thinks that the squad is capable of playing 4-4-2 and more expansive, compared to a month ago?

 

Because he's making it up as he goes along as all Managers tend to once they are in decline

[Jareth]

4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Lets have a chat after the Forest game, with the totally organised first 11.

Okeydoke

[villabromsgrove]

28 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The issue I have with these signings is that when they go, this money is dead - there's no resale, no recycling of the money - if we'd paid a couple of million for a risky twenty year old and it hadn't paid off, we'd have been able to recoup most of it and go again. Next summer could be really difficult, we're not out of the woods on FFP and we'll need to fill lots of holes in the squad. I think it's particularly important for a club in our position to keep an eye on our residual squad value.

 

This is a real concern. Promotion is essential to access the funds to rebuild. We've taken one hell of a gamble.