TRO Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I read somewhere someone saying or making a positive reference to, our diversity of play......saying we can morph in to many different styles. I think we are one of the best in the division for containing teams.....and I think if, IF, we are unlucky enough to make the play offs as opposed to automatic, that attribute alone could come in very handy to pick off gungo teams. but hey.....back to wining Auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 10 hours ago, eholm said: Ok, I'm not a Bruce fan and still believe that his default style of football is now dated and in no way see him as the future of our club. However, maybe we have to view it that there are now two types of 'manager'. IMO there is a manager and a head coach - some may argue that this is just semantics but I see some legitimate differences in the two specific roles. Bruce is your definitive 'manager' i.e. manages the staff and players he recruits effectively in order to get the best out of those players. He is not a coach and so is heavily reliant on his coaching team to impart the tactical organisation and game plan onto the players. Bruce is not hands-on on the training pitch and simply watches/oversees whilst getting feedback form his coaches - upon which he makes decisions on team selections. This may well explain the reasons why we are suddenly so much more of an attacking unit now that he has recruited his preferred attacking coach i.e. Agnew. Now, this is not a criticism of Bruce, actually I am defending him and trying to understand the way in which he manages. Yes, he is heavily dependant on his coaches but HE recruits them as part of his workforce knowing what they can produce in conjunction with the players. For that he deserves credit. Personally, I prefer a more of a 'head coach' manager. Someone who is very heavily involved in the tactical set up and coaching of the team. Yes, they still have a team of coaches but as the head coach they are fundamental in what that training looks like and they spend a lot of time on the training pitches actually directing and taking the sessions. I see Wagner, Hughton and Howe as these types of 'managers'. Even Klopp, according to material have read about him, is an extremely hands-on 'coach'. So we have two types of 'manager' in football and SB is definitely the in the former category. I credit him for finally getting all the components of his workforce to click and his appointment of Agnew looks excellent. IMO, however, the modern game has tactically developed exponentially and this is why we are seeing so many more 'head coaches' enjoying success as they play a crucial and extensive part in training the players directly to impart their own tactical knowledge. for this reason, I believe we need the latter type of 'manager' to have long term success. Just my thoughts on a rainy Sunday morning here in Swansea...with the sun definitely starting to come through over VP. Well reasoned observations, and in the short run I hope you're right and the upturn is here to stay.. But I feel I must add (you may or may not agree) that if the manager cannot see things in players without a specific person in the coaching role giving him the right input, there is a HUGE weakness in that manager. IF a manager MUST have the right coaches to be giving him the right input, for him to make the right decisions, the manager should know that and refuse to take a position if the right coaches are not in place. Or, he should spend much less time, money, and thought recruiting players until the coaching is right. You may be right. But it doesn't excuse the IMO terribly long delay in creating this turnaround. If turnarounds and changes in the club must take 15 months to bring about, then the three team plan (which requires two more overhauls) is a ridiculous strategy from the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Harking back to a previous question. The reason I laughed when Bruce said his plan had been to build the team around Grealish was that it looked nothing like that in the matches we played before Grealish got hurt. Given the way Grealish was being played, prior to that (often on the wing for example) it looked like an excuse made up in hindsight. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have been a Bruce outer for a long time. But it would be insane to fire him now. Things are finally working, I hope they continue and that he gets us promoted. I think in 10 years time, I'll look back and say that he did a good job turning the corner for us, but that I'll still think he made several blunders en route and took longer than necessary to really impact the change. That's assuming he gets us promoted, and then someone else takes over and creates the board's "second team" to make us stable in the premiership. Fingers crossed that the board's plan works, and SB plays his role in the first re-incarnation of Villa. (And based on recent performances, I feel much more confident that it might just work.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, TRO said: you are right here though Dave. You and I form opinions on what we see, we may be right at the time, but events change, so our opinions look misjudged, that happens at times to all of us. as you know, I have always been keen to give Steve Bruce a good run to rebuild us......but I must confess a little losing run and my confidence dissipated.....thats fickle on my part and not proud of it. However, I have never been disparaging towards him.....just frustrated at losing games. Players improve or regress or dip in and out of form, it happens and we change our opinions.....or loosen our grip. Opinions never were meant to be set in tablets of stone, thats for facts. UTV I think you’re being a little harsh on yourself with the fickle comment TRO. As you say opinions change with the facts presented, a losing run will inevitably bring doubt and a winning streak the opposite. And besides we’re just fans, we don’t have to make the big decisions. The fact still remains that a losing streak could still set us back, nothing is decided in January. I’m feeling confident at the moment, but if February is a repeat of December then that confidence will soon evaporate. Four more Januarys and we can all find a new argument to have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: Harking back to a previous question. The reason I laughed when Bruce said his plan had been to build the team around Grealish was that it looked nothing like that in the matches we played before Grealish got hurt. Given the way Grealish was being played, prior to that (often on the wing for example) it looked like an excuse made up in hindsight. depending on the degree of cynicism. It could be he was talking in a very general sense and could see what Jack needed to improve and thought when he does that I could build my team around him. much like an estate agent looking at a dilapidated house and predicting a value when its modernised. There are many ways of looking at these things, but who knows who is right. I'm just enjoying the ride.....at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted January 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 21, 2018 Marco Silva available! Bruce out....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 57 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: But it doesn't excuse the IMO terribly long delay in creating this turnaround. If turnarounds and changes in the club must take 15 months to bring about, then the three team plan (which requires two more overhauls) is a ridiculous strategy from the board. You really think it has been a terribly long delay? I don't actually think it has been 15 months, as we have been doing very nicely since September, but even if I go along with that you consider that a long time to turn around over 6 years of mismanagement, constant decline and finally bottoming out in one of the most shameful, dire, gutless seasons in the clubs history? I consider turning around what he inherited, a club that even in the Championship still wreaked of a losers mentality, in the time it has taken not bad going. In fact in 15 months to have now got us into a position going into the final 3 months of the season with automatic promotion in our own hands is very good going. Whatever the aims are beyond this season if we do get promoted come May then that initial turn around from rock bottom when Bruce arrived to being back in the Premier League will have been the hardest hurdle and the biggest hill we will have to climb. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rubberman Posted January 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 21, 2018 It's probably been a slower turnaround than most would have liked, but I look at Sunderland and think of where we were heading. That hits home for me how truly terrible a state we were in. The road back hasn't always been smooth but it seems we are on our way. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, rubberman said: It's probably been a slower turnaround than most would have liked, but I look at Sunderland and think of where we were heading. That hits home for me how truly terrible a state we were in. The road back hasn't always been smooth but it seems we are on our way. It was never going to be an easy task and I think, looking back, that the time it has taken is legit. I wanted it to happen sooner as much as anyone else, but I think ( a ) it isn't worth dwelling on could-have-bins to critique the present ( b ) it hasn't exactly taken a lifetime either so credit where credit is due. Edited January 21, 2018 by osmark86 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, TRO said: depending on the degree of cynicism. It could be he was talking in a very general sense and could see what Jack needed to improve and thought when he does that I could build my team around him. much like an estate agent looking at a dilapidated house and predicting a value when its modernised. There are many ways of looking at these things, but who knows who is right. I'm just enjoying the ride.....at the moment. your ability (and some others tbf) to see the best in Bruce while not seeing the best in others, will always confuse me. But I like you (or at least your VT persona). So, that's something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, rubberman said: It's probably been a slower turnaround than most would have liked, but I look at Sunderland and think of where we were heading. That hits home for me how truly terrible a state we were in. The road back hasn't always been smooth but it seems we are on our way. Yep. The truth is we went down far worse than Sunderland as well. It's only because Tony Xia spent so much money we had a chance really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 21, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 21, 2018 5 hours ago, sne said: Think you have to factor in the terrible start we had to the season. We had 7 points after 7 games or something like that. Even some of Bruce's sternest supporters were wobbling about him I agree, me included. But I don't see what that has to do with Grealish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: your ability (and some others tbf) to see the best in Bruce while not seeing the best in others, will always confuse me. But I like you (or at least your VT persona). So, that's something. I see the best in everyone.....until i see a reason not to.....by and large most folk mean well and try their best. I like the ebullient nature of Bruce and i think he is as honest as football managers can be under the circumstances. I like to keep an open mind especially, if i think there are things I am not fully informed/aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 42 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: You really think it has been a terribly long delay? I don't actually think it has been 15 months, as we have been doing very nicely since September, but even if I go along with that you consider that a long time to turn around over 6 years of mismanagement, constant decline and finally bottoming out in one of the most shameful, dire, gutless seasons in the clubs history? I consider turning around what he inherited, a club that even in the Championship still wreaked of a losers mentality, in the time it has taken not bad going. In fact in 15 months to have now got us into a position going into the final 3 months of the season with automatic promotion in our own hands is very good going. Whatever the aims are beyond this season if we do get promoted come May then that initial turn around from rock bottom when Bruce arrived to being back in the Premier League will have been the hardest hurdle and the biggest hill we will have to climb. I must admit, that it seems like a long delay because I got very frustrated very early, with some baffling (IMO) decisions. There have been plenty of times when rank amateurs like me could see that things would be much better if we made subs earlier. There have been plenty times when rank amateurs like me could see that things would be much better if we didn't play such a high line with a shortage of speed in the CB,, or if we would just pressure the ball a bit higher in midfield. A week or two faster adaptations at so many places would have had us playing well so much sooner. TBF, I have been involved in international youth matches and international friendlies, semi-pro, and pro matches in the states. So I'm not a football fool. But I am a rank amateur compared to Bruce and his inability to see things that needed changed has baffled me. Maybe eholm was right and he needed Agnew to see things. But with SB's experience, I take that as an indictment. I'm just explaining my view, but all that aside. I'm delighted that Bruce has apparently (finally) figured out how to make it work. I'm enjoying watching us win again. I hope he continues to do well and that our performances and results continue as they have since late Dec. I hope he sees us back into the PL. So, despite explaining my view, I have no desire to be a downer on anyone's enjoyment of the moment. Long may it continue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, TRO said: I see the best in everyone.....until i see a reason not to.....by and large most folk mean well and try their best. I like the ebullient nature of Bruce and i think he is as honest as football managers can be under the circumstances. I like to keep an open mind especially, if i think there are things I am not fully informed/aware of. But to see the best in Bruce, you have sometimes attributed pretty poor qualities to players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 minute ago, TRO said: I see the best in everyone.....until i see a reason not to.....by and large most folk mean well and try their best. I like the ebullient nature of Bruce and i think he is as honest as football managers can be under the circumstances. I like to keep an open mind especially, if i think there are things I am not fully informed/aware of. TRO - everyone knows how much you like him - and that's perfectly fine - I think Bruce is a jovial and likeable kind of guy - I do think he needs a rain check sometime when talking to the press - but I don't hold this against him - I just don't want him here next season come what may 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: I must admit, that it seems like a long delay because I got very frustrated very early, with some baffling (IMO) decisions. There have been plenty of times when rank amateurs like me could see that things would be much better if we made subs earlier. There have been plenty times when rank amateurs like me could see that things would be much better if we didn't play such a high line with a shortage of speed in the CB,, or if we would just pressure the ball a bit higher in midfield. A week or two faster adaptations at so many places would have had us playing well so much sooner. TBF, I have been involved in international youth matches and international friendlies, semi-pro, and pro matches in the states. So I'm not a football fool. But I am a rank amateur compared to Bruce and his inability to see things that needed changed has baffled me. Maybe eholm was right and he needed Agnew to see things. But with SB's experience, I take that as an indictment. I'm just explaining my view, but all that aside. I'm delighted that Bruce has apparently (finally) figured out how to make it work. I'm enjoying watching us win again. I hope he continues to do well and that our performances and results continue as they have since late Dec. I hope he sees us back into the PL. So, despite explaining my view, I have no desire to be a downer on anyone's enjoyment of the moment. Long may it continue. I can't comment on what you see or your translation of it, but let me offer a touch of mitigation. maybe Bruce could see what you could see....but doing something about it requires bodies, people, coaches. It could be he knew he needed staff and he was unable to get to all the things that were wrong .....personally. I'm not sure.....but is it wise to jump to any conclusion, if we don't know?.....lets just enjoy the wins. Edited January 21, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, srsmithusa said: But to see the best in Bruce, you have sometimes attributed pretty poor qualities to players. True.....and it shows, i am not perfect.....but in some cases i thought i was right...players improve, opinions change. but one is the person actually playing the game, the other is directing things. one is directly involved, the other is indirectly involved. but when we lose you attribute ( and i have been guilty too) the blame on Bruce.....but when we win, its the players. maybe we all suffer a bit of double standards. but we can all be safely tucked up in bed, knowing they are all doing well manager and players at present. no arguments. Edited January 21, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 21, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2018 21 minutes ago, Dave J said: I just don't want him here next season come what may That's the spirit! Come on Villa! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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