Steve Bruce

[TRO]

1 hour ago, mykeyb said:

Rednapp took over a team that was destined for League 1, whilst they didnt look like scoring when they played us they certainly played the better of the two teams because of the work done in the limited time there, Bruce has made us harder to beat although his record is just as bad as RDM, there is no decernible pattern to our play, we have won games because of a bit of magic from Kodja, Adomah or Grealish and not because we dominated play.

I would love bruce to be the man but I dont see it I really dont. I dont see any kind of improvement in style or organisation. It always looks like 11 blokes put on the pitch with no idea who is doing what.

At times you would be forgiven for thinking that....but we are WIP.....it isn't finished.

If it was finished, we wouldn't be looking for 4 new players.....If we had of been playing expansive football , scoring lots of goals, dominating possession, we wouldn't be looking for 4 new players.

I am not looking for excuses, but that early poor run, sapped the life out of us all......its like giving someone 35 start at snooker.

you are judging a team that is unfinished .....but with a judgmental hat on.

I am not saying you are wrong in what you witnessed last season.....just saying its an unfinished team.

I remember many moons ago when we had a decent team, thats all.....Alex Cropley arrived and his tenacity and guile transformed the whole team, one player, he had an effect on all around him every players game went up a gear......that can happen again, but it hasn't to date.....It will come.

The bookmakers ( cumulative)are rarely wrong.

[TRO]

53 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Its this 4 promotion things, therefore we will be OK that gets me. It seems like blind optimism that he will do it, when as others have posted above, he has not shown any signs of achieving it here.

 

To me, it feels like hiring a builder to build you a house, you get someone who has built four houses before so you think it's all great. Six months in there are bricks everywhere, the foundations haven't been dug, the site caravan is upside down, the digger has been stolen and the workmen he hired are all in the corner having a fag. On top of that there is a chap from the council stood outside asking why you haven't got planning permission. what do you do? Sit and wait hoping he will build your house because he has built four houses before (two of which fell down) or do you get in another builder?

Syllogism running riot

[TheStagMan]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Syllogism running riot

I think you will find that was an analogy rather than syllogism.....

 

Syllogism* running riot would be someone saying something like:

"Steve Bruce has got teams promoted from the Championship", "Aston Villa are in the Championship", therefore "Steve Bruce will get Aston Villa promoted"

Don't use big words if you don't know what they mean  

 

* Cue every VT reader googling what Syllogism means

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by TheStagMan

[DCJonah]

7 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

So bruce could not have achieved that target as candleface ? 

The point is that is a very short term target. Top 10 we missed it but when he came we were fearing a double relegation.  So i will say to you

Did he get the teams winning consistently?

Passed

Did he manage to get away wins?

Passed

Did he win back to back games?

Passed

Did he manage to consistently keep clean sheets?

Passed (johnstone kept more clean sheets than any ither keeper in this league)

Did he improve the squad in January?

I would say passed again.

He failed in your own objectives which i think are a little unrealistic as we started so badly, but in many peoples eyes people can see progress has been made from garde-rdm period.

That said i would agree that mext season anything like this year would be a complete failure and then questions woukd need to bw asked if he would have to be replaced.

 

 

 

He failed in his own objective. Nothing made up about that. He said we had to finish top 10 and he failed 

[chrisvilla4]

Well. I'm looking forward to the new season. I'm feeling optimistic. I think Bruce will have a good pre season, get them firing on all cylinders, motivated, hungry and hopefully get his new signings in early and we can hit the ground running. 

 

[srsmithusa]

8 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

So bruce could not have achieved that target as candleface ? 

The point is that is a very short term target. Top 10 we missed it but when he came we were fearing a double relegation.  So i will say to you

Did he get the teams winning consistently?

Passed

Did he manage to get away wins?

Passed

Did he win back to back games?

Passed

Did he manage to consistently keep clean sheets?

Passed (johnstone kept more clean sheets than any ither keeper in this league)

Did he improve the squad in January?

I would say passed again.

He failed in your own objectives which i think are a little unrealistic as we started so badly, but in many peoples eyes people can see progress has been made from garde-rdm period.

That said i would agree that mext season anything like this year would be a complete failure and then questions woukd need to bw asked if he would have to be replaced.

 

 

 

To me, the bit in bold is absolute proof, he failed.  I would say that this past season was a WHOLE lot like this past season, and on that basis, he should be replaced.  (it won't happen, but I think it should)

I am fully aware that you and others think differently.   Only time will tell, but the truth is, it won't either !   Because if he does great, I will always think a new guy could very well have done better.  And if he does terribly, those that support him will have some reason that it was beyond his control, and nobody could have done any better considering..... cue another round of rationalizations.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

I think you will find that was an analogy rather than syllogism.....

 

Syllogism* running riot would be someone saying something like:

"Steve Bruce has got teams promoted from the Championship", "Aston Villa are in the Championship", therefore "Steve Bruce will get Aston Villa promoted"

Don't use big words if you don't know what they mean  

 

* Cue every VT reader googling what Syllogism means

 

well,

a) its not a big word, its a very apt word for your post......but yeah analogy is apt too.

 it means amongst interpretations....."deductive reasoning".....In my view, my view......thats what you attempted to do

wasn't the perfect description granted, but you knew what I meant.

Oh and by the way, the 4 promotions are facts......they can be used or dismissed at anyones leisure, you don't have to let them get to you.

my understanding is for those that are defending SB its just a quote of fact amongst many opinions of him that helps anyone who does not favour him to understand why some do.

ps You like Tomato, I like Tamahto.....

Edited June 16, 2017 by TRO

[weedman]

10 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Its this 4 promotion things, therefore we will be OK that gets me. It seems like blind optimism that he will do it, when as others have posted above, he has not shown any signs of achieving it here.

 

To me, it feels like hiring a builder to build you a house, you get someone who has built four houses before so you think it's all great. Six months in there are bricks everywhere, the foundations haven't been dug, the site caravan is upside down, the digger has been stolen and the workmen he hired are all in the corner having a fag. On top of that there is a chap from the council stood outside asking why you haven't got planning permission. what do you do? Sit and wait hoping he will build your house because he has built four houses before (two of which fell down) or do you get in another builder?

The better analogy would be hiring a builder who has a track record of building the exact style of house that you want, but when he arrives to start the work the guy you hired before him because of a great advert you'd seen messed everything up, hadn't even got the foundations dug, had all the wrong tools, and your guy has to start from scratch, undoing all the crap that he inherited. You show up to check on it a few months later and it looks like a building site still. This doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing the thing he's been successfully doing for decades, it just means it's a work in progress.

Our foundations are there, it's the finishing touches that we need now, final pieces that turn a building site into a house

[Rob182]

8 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

 

* Cue every VT reader googling what Syllogism means

 

Nah, you're alright

[weedman]

14 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

I love a good post with reasoning. especially long ones. and I can understand all what you say regarding many points

but

(please go to bold)

As you are stating points about why it hasnt all clicked yet. you have in fact stated (in bold) the exact reason why it hasnt clicked yet.

How can a "lack of clear attacking plan" click when there isnt one?

Its very frustrating for me as a Brucer-out-er to form my own opinion of what is wrong knowing that other VTers see the same flaw.

Its incomprehendable for me when a VTer sees the very same flaw but is prepared to hand out excuses for Bruce for " more time, patience, hard task, preseason........etc" when those excuses are not the solution to the fundamental flaw.

The flaw lies at the managers feet, his coaches and those above him look on either unaware or not prepared to take the consequenses

There is no faith in someone who has the wrong key to the door.

Of course we can all see the same problem, it's not hiding, the real difference between people who think Bruce should be given more time and those that don't isn't being blind to what we've seen, it's having faith that it will change.

I should have added "so far" to what I said, Bruce is not stupid, he's not lucked into his previous promotions, I didn't see much of his other teams, but Hull didn't play drab defensive football, they generally had the upper hand on possession and scored plenty of goals. So far we've seen a style similar to that of McLeish, that is, no real style, but overall Bruce's teams set up more like a Mourinho (note : I'm not saying he is anywhere near Mourinho's level, simply a comparable style), solid defensively with some excellent attacking players allowed to express themselves. Until those attacking players are brought in and gel the attacking will always seem lacking, but once they get going it's hard to stop.

The resilience is now there, getting the attacking players to begin linking up and gelling together is the final step, it may need a new signing, it may just need a bit of time, but I firmly believe it will happen eventually. I understand you don't believe that, but given Bruce will undoubtedly be starting the season as our manager, I'm sure we're both hoping that I'm right and you're not! 

Edited June 16, 2017 by weedman

[DaveAV1]

On 15/06/2017 at 20:57, Dave J said:

In all fairness I thought Lambert was a truly great appointment based on what I saw of his Norwich team that won double promotion - I'm still puzzled as to why he rocked up at VP and put on the hand brake ??

That baffled me too. Norwich scored loads of goals, it was defending that they had problems with. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

That baffled me too. Norwich scored loads of goals, it was defending that they had problems with. 

It's because we have an uncanny ability to make everyone shite.

[DaveAV1]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's because we have an uncanny ability to make everyone shite.

You're right and worryingly little sign of the trend changing. 

[mykeyb]

17 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

We were destined for league one when Bruce came in! One win in 12 we were in a complete mess. 

Sorry Mykey but the part in bold is simply not true

RDM win ratio 8.33%

Bruce win ratio 42.86%

Although I understand your reservations with the last paragraph. 

I was referring to his ratio of loses to games played in "harder to beat" not his win ratio

[Jareth]

52 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

I was referring to his ratio of loses to games played in "harder to beat" not his win ratio

Yep, bit of an inconvenient truth that 42% win rate. If he didn't have that it's like the bruce out chants would have a basis, or something. 

[dn1982]

11 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Yep, bit of an inconvenient truth that 42% win rate. If he didn't have that it's like the bruce out chants would have a basis, or something. 

Did Bruce beat any of the top 6? What's his win % against the teams who finished above us? In January we had a run of games to close the gap on the top 6 in this crucial period he failed abysmally. There hasn't been any Bruce Out chants but what there has been is criticism of his record and the style of football. We can all find stats to prove our point and in your 42% is some turgid football. If we weren't getting promoted I'd rather have had less wins but the football improving. We won't get promoted playing like we did last year. 

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, mykeyb said:

I was referring to his ratio of loses to games played in "harder to beat" not his win ratio

Winning games ratio though is more important than loss of games though no? RDM lost two games but only one one against the worst team in the league at home! 

1 hour ago, dn1982 said:

Did Bruce beat any of the top 6? What's his win % against the teams who finished above us? In January we had a run of games to close the gap on the top 6 in this crucial period he failed abysmally. There hasn't been any Bruce Out chants but what there has been is criticism of his record and the style of football. We can all find stats to prove our point and in your 42% is some turgid football. If we weren't getting promoted I'd rather have had less wins but the football improving. We won't get promoted playing like we did last year. 

Bruce drew twice vs Brighton, beat reading away and lost at home. Lost to Huddersfield and Newcastle away, and beat Wednesday and derby at home.

be also beat Fulham and lost to Fulham (with 10 men when kodjia was wrongly sent off)

therefore a mixed bag of success

[Villa Stu]

To be honest I have been sat on the fence about Bruce, I get that he has a history of getting teams promoted but that for me at this minute no longer matters. In the squad we have we have got some of the best players in this league and it is down to Bruce to get them playing well in a system that works for us. We should not be fearing any team in this league and sitting too deep against anyone, we need to be on the front foot, how many managers in this league would love to have our creative players at their disposal? We have Kodjia, hogan, McCormack, grealish, Hourihane, Lansbury, adomah and green. The creativity is there for us to be dominating games and not playing with what seems a back 6 at times. With our back 4 and Jedi sitting just in front, we can afford to commit more than 1 player forward at a time. We will not get promoted by only having 7 or 8 chances per game, we need to be having 15 to 20 and show this league who we are, we are Aston Villa and we should be the ones that are feared. If Bruce does not have us winning and dominating games after the first 10 then I believe he should go.

I would love for Bruce to get everything right and succeed here and if he deploys the team as he did last game of the season then I think we would storm the league, but of his overall time here I just cannot see that happening-hopefully I am wrong though. For me he has to deliver straight away now and kick the team on.

UTV

[TRO]

18 hours ago, weedman said:

Of course we can all see the same problem, it's not hiding, the real difference between people who think Bruce should be given more time and those that don't isn't being blind to what we've seen, it's having faith that it will change.

I should have added "so far" to what I said, Bruce is not stupid, he's not lucked into his previous promotions, I didn't see much of his other teams, but Hull didn't play drab defensive football, they generally had the upper hand on possession and scored plenty of goals. So far we've seen a style similar to that of McLeish, that is, no real style, but overall Bruce's teams set up more like a Mourinho (note : I'm not saying he is anywhere near Mourinho's level, simply a comparable style), solid defensively with some excellent attacking players allowed to express themselves. Until those attacking players are brought in and gel the attacking will always seem lacking, but once they get going it's hard to stop.

The resilience is now there, getting the attacking players to begin linking up and gelling together is the final step, it may need a new signing, it may just need a bit of time, but I firmly believe it will happen eventually. I understand you don't believe that, but given Bruce will undoubtedly be starting the season as our manager, I'm sure we're both hoping that I'm right and you're not! 

very well summed up and comments I totally endorse.

[DCJonah]

19 hours ago, weedman said:

The better analogy would be hiring a builder who has a track record of building the exact style of house that you want, but when he arrives to start the work the guy you hired before him because of a great advert you'd seen messed everything up, hadn't even got the foundations dug, had all the wrong tools, and your guy has to start from scratch, undoing all the crap that he inherited. You show up to check on it a few months later and it looks like a building site still. This doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing the thing he's been successfully doing for decades, it just means it's a work in progress.

Our foundations are there, it's the finishing touches that we need now, final pieces that turn a building site into a house

What are the foundations he's installed? We aren't harder to beat, our goals conceded numbers aren't much different, our performances aren't great and we don't keep the ball well. 

What are the foundations Bruce has installed that RDM had completely messed up which will pay off next year?