Dalian Atkinson

[snowychap]

On 12/05/2021 at 00:30, Panto_Villan said:

What confuses me is why you're so insistent that it's totally unreasonable that someone would feel more scared if someone was aggressive towards them and their principal method of defending themselves wasn't working.

I'm not insistent that 'it's totally unreasonable that...' - what I'm saying is that giving people a get out that they might feel frightened because the first two acts of force have failed to elicit the desired effect isn't a very good line to take.

Edit: The stuff you were saying about them being angry seems quite obviously true. How much of that might be because they were genuinely frightened or scared in the first instance and that escalated to being really and reasonably scared for their safety and the safety of others and spilt in to anger and frustration at the ineffectiveness of the weapon in its first two deployments or that they were pissed off that someone was being loud and aggressive towards their boyfriend/girlfriend late at night one can only guess.

Edited May 13, 2021 by snowychap

[blandy]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

what I'm saying is that giving people a get out that they might feel frightened because the first two acts of force have failed to elicit the desired effect isn't a very good line to take.

 

It is if you want to turn Murder into manslaughter, IMO.

(That's a comment on the situation the plod face, not your views/input)

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

The rest of the post might well be correct, but I don't understand the bolded at all. What makes it 'less chilling'? I get no more comfort from the thought of police officers who are psychos, utterly lacking in control of their own rage and emotions, than I do from Derek Chauvin. I just don't understand the difference you're drawing.

It's a personal opinion, and your own mileage may vary. I don't think it's uncommon to find things more disturbing if you can't relate to them at all though.

I've think most people can relate to getting angry and having moments of wanting to hurt someone, even though hopefully nobody has acted on it. Sociopathic behaviour is impossible to relate to for non-sociopaths, hence it's more chilling when it happens.

There's a reason why many countries punish premeditated murder more harshly than spur-of-the-moment killings.

[HanoiVillan]

45 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

It's a personal opinion, and your own mileage may vary. I don't think it's uncommon to find things more disturbing if you can't relate to them at all though.

I've think most people can relate to getting angry and having moments of wanting to hurt someone, even though hopefully nobody has acted on it. Sociopathic behaviour is impossible to relate to for non-sociopaths, hence it's more chilling when it happens.

There's a reason why many countries punish premeditated murder more harshly than spur-of-the-moment killings.

Hmmm.

I think the first thing I need to say is, I don't know exactly what happened with Atkinson and these police officers, beyond the media reporting. It really makes a difference that the Floyd murder was filmed. That being said, we still can't know exactly what was going through Chauvin's head either. I'm certainly convinced it was 'murder', in as much as he had to know that what he was doing had a very high chance of killing Floyd and he deliberately continued to do it anyway, but I don't know that it was 'premeditated', any more than the Atkinson situation.

To take your argument (which sounds plausible to me) that this was a case of panic and then massive, fear-and-rage over-reaction seriously, that seems to equally well explain Derek Chauvin's actions. But this seems if anything more frightening to me; the proportion of the population who suffer from truly violently sociopathic tendencies is seemingly very small, and is probably a constant (more or less). By contrast, police forces hiring people who panic and get violent, giving them poor or inadequate training, and/or equipping them with lethal force, seems to me to be a problem that may be more frequent, and can grow larger.

And we also need to consider the racial angle as well. Would they have acted the same way to a white member of the public? Did they see Atkinson as more frightening because of his skin colour, or less worthy of respect, or even less human? Do we live in a society that demonises or dehumanises certain groups of people, and could this situation be in some way a result of that? I find that thought more troubling than the possibility of meeting a cold-blooded violent sociopath.

I guess you're right, these things are personal reactions, but I just found it a strange line to write, because for me it kinda-sorta undermined the point you made (which I believe you are sincere about!) about 'not excusing their actions'; to describe it as 'less chilling' seems to diminish what happened in some way (which as I say, I don't think at all was your intention).

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

It is if you want to turn Murder into manslaughter, IMO.

(That's a comment on the situation the plod face, not your views/input)

It may be but you're right it's a comment on the situation plod face and not about the point I was making.

[Mark Albrighton]

Quote

Data from the Taser used on ex-footballer Dalian Atkinson showed it was activated eight times for a total of more than 80 seconds, a jury has heard.

Prosecutors claim West Mercia PoliceConstable Benjamin Monk, who denies murder and manslaughter, used unlawful and unreasonable force during a final 33-second firing of the Taser, and by then kicking former Aston Villa star Atkinson in the head.

The third week of Monk’s trial at Birmingham Court Court was told the Taser recorded periods when its trigger was pressed, but did not show whether it had been effective in delivering an electrical charge.

More on the link

So the obvious question that I guess would be asked is how much of the 81 seconds when the taser was being deployed was “effective”.

It seems like the first 48 seconds the taser was deployed over the course of around 1 minute or so, with sporadic gaps of varying lengths. Then there was a gap of just under 3 minutes before the taser was deployed again for the much quoted 33 seconds.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Mark Albrighton

[NoelVilla]

[The_Steve]

Monk found guilty of manslaughter. Justice for Dalian. Black Lives Matter. 

[paul514]

Dalian Atkinson: PC guilty of former footballer's manslaughter https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57495426

[rodders0223]

Strange way to spell murder 

[The_Steve]

It’s honestly shocking how it wasn’t murder. Very curious as to why the jury went that way. It was a brutal and violent attack on a vulnerable black man

[Chindie]

Now give him a significant sentence.

[villa4europe]

3 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

It’s honestly shocking how it wasn’t murder. Very curious as to why the jury went that way. It was a brutal and violent attack on a vulnerable black man

Murder would need to be pre-meditated which I'm guessing would be impossible to prove in this circumstance, no evidence of planning etc 

[The_Steve]

2 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Murder would need to be pre-meditated which I'm guessing would be impossible to prove in this circumstance, no evidence of planning etc 

True. It’s just so disgusting and disturbing on so many levels. Hope the rocket polisher gets a long sentence. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by The_Steve

[rayk]

14 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

True. It’s just so disgusting and disturbing on so many levels. Hope the rocket polisher gets a long sentence. 

Nope. I’m a lawyer by background and the basic definition between murder and manslaughter is an intention to kill or cause GBH which results in death.

Now the apparent excessive use of the taser and reported kicking in the head bit leads me to believe the GBH element was a strong case.

Jury have gone soft because he’s a copper imo.

[cyrusr]

22 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Murder would need to be pre-meditated which I'm guessing would be impossible to prove in this circumstance, no evidence of planning etc 

It wouldn't need pre-meditated, would require an intent to cause grievous bodily harm (GBH) or murder. Manslaughter means that there wasn't the "mens rea" element for murder, so he has been found guilty of doing the actions that caused Dalian's death, just whether there was enough beyond reasonable doubt that he intended for Dalian to die or cause GBH. I suspect that was likely to be the bulk of the discussions in the Jury Room. 

Well it is something at least for Dalian. No doubt more will come out shortly but pleased some level of justice is done. 

 

*edit - what @rayk has put. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by cyrusr

[The_Steve]

23 minutes ago, rayk said:

Nope. I’m a lawyer by background and the basic definition between murder and manslaughter is an intention to kill or cause GBH which results in death.

Now the apparent excessive use of the taser and reported kicking in the head bit leads me to believe the GBH element was a strong case.

Jury have gone soft because he’s a copper imo.

Thanks man, that’s really helpful. I share that feeling. It does and doesn’t feel like accountability. His family had to wait 5 years. The first time an officer has been found guilty of this in decades. 

[sidcow]

35 minutes ago, rayk said:

Nope. I’m a lawyer by background and the basic definition between murder and manslaughter is an intention to kill or cause GBH which results in death.

Now the apparent excessive use of the taser and reported kicking in the head bit leads me to believe the GBH element was a strong case.

Jury have gone soft because he’s a copper imo.

I don't think it's that simple. It was unanimous, they can't all be racist police protectionists. 

There must be some technical test they just couldn't get over. 

In my mind he definitely decided to hurt Dalian as badly as he could and used force likely to kill him.  The OTT tazering is bad enough but the head kicks of an unconscious man are disgusting and intended to cause serious harm to him. 

Whatever manslaughter can carry as maximum needs to be the sentence. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by sidcow

[briny_ear]

38 minutes ago, rayk said:

Nope. I’m a lawyer by background and the basic definition between murder and manslaughter is an intention to kill or cause GBH which results in death.

Now the apparent excessive use of the taser and reported kicking in the head bit leads me to believe the GBH element was a strong case.

Jury have gone soft because he’s a copper imo.

Agree totally with this, but, on the other hand, according to the BBC, no police officer has been found guilty of murder or manslaughter over a death in custody or following police contact in England and Wales since the 1980s. It is incredibly hard to bring the police to account in circumstances like this, so you could see the jury as having made a very tough decision given that history.

It’s no surprise they found him guilty given the clear evidence of horrendous violence against Dalian.

I am glad that Dalian and his family got some sort of justice after all this time. But I feel incredibly sad at the thought that he met his death in such terrible circumstances, lying stunned and kicked repeatedly in the head with such brutality. It’s almost impossible to imagine that the player whose talent shone so bright for Villa in the early 90s should have come to such a desolate end.

[mikeyp102]

Let’s hope he gets a long sentence