brummybloke Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 19 hours ago, peterms said: A serious discussion really isn't helped by nonsense like this, now is it. Sorry i should have said in my professional capacity for 16 years first, that 99% off the people I know who have been tasered, seen being Tasered or whom I have tasered have warranted it. impact factors pay a huge impact on each one. Such as weapons, failure to comply with commands which could put people including the suspect at risk. Weather. Lighting. Previous knowledge. Size of suspect. Behaviour of suspect. All of these things or just one or two of them is enough to warrant the use of it. Obviously you know different ? Oh... you don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 55 minutes ago, brummybloke said: impact factors pay a huge impact on each one. Such as weapons, failure to comply with commands which could put people including the suspect at risk. Weather. Lighting. Previous knowledge. Size of suspect. Behaviour of suspect. All of these things or just one or two of them is enough to warrant the use of it. Just one or two ill-defined factors warrant the use of a taser? I'm surprised it's only at 99% in that case. Next up: 99% of people arrested are guilty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, brummybloke said: Sorry i should have said in my professional capacity for 16 years first, that 99% off the people I know who have been tasered, seen being Tasered or whom I have tasered have warranted it. impact factors pay a huge impact on each one. Such as weapons, failure to comply with commands which could put people including the suspect at risk. Weather. Lighting. Previous knowledge. Size of suspect. Behaviour of suspect. All of these things or just one or two of them is enough to warrant the use of it. Obviously you know different ? Oh... you don't? Are you including the large numbers of mental health patients who are tasered routinely in psychiatric units in your 99%? There are some, obviously not as wise and professional, who see the rising use of tasers, particularly against people with mental health problems, as a rather lazy way of avoiding the need for proper resourcing and training of professionals to deal effectively with cases where people are putting themselves or others at risk. Not to mention the UN who have classified use of tasers as a form of torture. I feel this discussion would be much better dealt with in Off Topic as a separate thread, not repeatedly messing up the comments commemorating Dalian Atkinson. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 46 minutes ago, briny_ear said: Are you including the large numbers of mental health patients who are tasered routinely in psychiatric units in your 99%? There are some, obviously not as wise and professional, who see the rising use of tasers, particularly against people with mental health problems, as a rather lazy way of avoiding the need for proper resourcing and training of professionals to deal effectively with cases where people are putting themselves or others at risk. Not to mention the UN who have classified use of tasers as a form of torture. I feel this discussion would be much better dealt with in Off Topic as a separate thread, not repeatedly messing up the comments commemorating Dalian Atkinson. I think if you are having to come up against anyone who is physically strong has a positive mindset or has mental health issues and is hurting either themselves or another person or there is a risk they will then I would expect the public would wish the police to react. Unfortunately the majority of cases are dynamic so the luxury of asking the person who is causing the issues if they have any medical conditions that they should be aware of prior to being Tasered is not only unrealistic but ridiculous in most cases. And anyone with mental health issues which is a VERY broad spectrum, does it no matter of they kill someone. Are people expecting that it doesn't count because they are suffering an illness? Tell that to victims of violent crime or sexual offences. I quoted in my reply but it was not all directed to briny_ear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, brummybloke said: And anyone with mental health issues which is a VERY broad spectrum, does it no matter of they kill someone. Are people expecting that it doesn't count because they are suffering an illness? I'm not sure what you're on about. 1 hour ago, brummybloke said: Tell that to victims of violent crime or sexual offences. I don't recommend this. The last thing they need in that situation is to be utterly flummoxed, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 2 hours ago, briny_ear said: I feel this discussion would be much better dealt with in Off Topic as a separate thread, not repeatedly messing up the comments commemorating Dalian Atkinson. I like your thinking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 45 minutes ago, snowychap said: I'm not sure what you're on about. I don't recommend this. The last thing they need in that situation is to be utterly flummoxed, too. That's fine I really have no problem that you can't grasp it. Not quite sure why you commented on something you admit you don't have any idea about but hey ho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, brummybloke said: That's fine I really have no problem that you can't grasp it. Not quite sure why you commented on something you admit you don't have any idea about but hey ho I can't 'grasp' what you posted as it didn't make any sense, in particular this bit: anyone with mental health issues which is a VERY broad spectrum, does it no matter of they kill someone. I commented on it because it didn't make sense. Edit: As per VILLAMARV's post above, though, there's a thread in Off Topic now if you wish to discuss Tasers, their use and the statistics relating to them. Edited August 17, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post peterms Posted August 17, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2016 6 hours ago, brummybloke said: Sorry i should have said in my professional capacity for 16 years first, that 99% off the people I know who have been tasered, seen being Tasered or whom I have tasered have warranted it. impact factors pay a huge impact on each one. Such as weapons, failure to comply with commands which could put people including the suspect at risk. Weather. Lighting. Previous knowledge. Size of suspect. Behaviour of suspect. All of these things or just one or two of them is enough to warrant the use of it. Obviously you know different ? Oh... you don't? A good illustration of why we need some independent, critical scrutiny of the way tasers are used. User of tasers and colleague of other users of tasers declares their use is pretty much always proper, necessary and appropriate. Well, colour me shocked. No pun intended. Tasers were introduced on the basis that they were an alternative to firearms. Mission creep has seen their use be extended far, far beyond situations where firearms could be justified. Even as far as someone not doing as they are told...and now the Police Federation want every copper to have one. It seems likely that in some cases they are used as a form of punishment. They are certainly being used without the officers responsible having much if any idea of the potentially lethal effects, and the types of reactions they may cause among people with a whole range of conditions. Well, I assume that's the case, otherwise we'd be looking at the possibility of manslaughter charges. Tasers are part of the creeping weaponisation of the police. They are drifting from a last-resort defence, into a weapon of control and punishment, very far from what we were told when they were introduced. We should also be aware of the insidious way they will change the attitude and behaviour of police, making it easier to threaten and punish than seek to engage and communicate. The opposite of policing by consent. We see in the US the appalling outcome of that approach. Let's not go there. Dalian Atkinson was not the first victim of tasers. Possibly his death will prompt some people to think a bit more about this (or even get the Home Office to release the results of a study of taser use which reported many months ago and which is being withheld). 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Nice comments from MOTD after his lovely double against Sheff Weds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 18, 2016 Moderator Share Posted August 18, 2016 Two officers facing gross misconduct charges and under criminal investigation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 On 17 August 2016 at 17:01, briny_ear said: Are you including the large numbers of mental health patients who are tasered routinely in psychiatric units in your 99%? There are some, obviously not as wise and professional, who see the rising use of tasers, particularly against people with mental health problems, as a rather lazy way of avoiding the need for proper resourcing and training of professionals to deal effectively with cases where people are putting themselves or others at risk. Not to mention the UN who have classified use of tasers as a form of torture. I feel this discussion would be much better dealt with in Off Topic as a separate thread, not repeatedly messing up the comments commemorating Dalian Atkinson. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holtern8 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Gross misconduct notices , does this mean they've been sacked? Pretty serious stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) On 18/08/2016 at 19:45, Holtern8 said: Gross misconduct notices , does this mean they've been sacked? Pretty serious stuff. It should mean that they have been advised that they are facing an investigation which may result in charges which they must respond to, and presumably also that in view of the seriousness of the possible charge (which could result in dismissal) they will be suspended, without implication of guilt or innocence, while the case is dealt with. The possible criminal investigation is a separate issue. They might be found guilty or innocent of either or both misconduct and criminal charges, if in fact any charges are laid - sounds like it might just be a notice of an investigation which may or may not lead to charges. For context, fhere have been 1032 deaths in police custody since 1990, and I believe none have led to criminal charges. Some info here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/18/police-officers-investigated-over-dalian-atkinson-taser-death Quote Two West Mercia police officers are under criminal investigation over the death of the former Premier League footballer Dalian Atkinson, who died after he was Tasered three times by police. The two officers were also being served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said on Thursday. Some eyewitnesses have also reported that Atkinson was struck by officers while he was on the ground. One woman has already told the BBC that she saw what she believed was Atkinson being kicked by police. The IPCC has stressed its decision to launch a criminal investigation does not mean the officers did anything wrong. The former Aston Villa footballer died after police Tasered him near his father’s home in Telford on Monday..... Of course some posters may be able to say exactly how this proceeds in the police force rather than in general. Edited August 21, 2016 by blandy extract added 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dounavilla Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 As much as I hate to say it and I'm not jumping on some 'police hate' by saying this but I suspect this would have slipped under the radar had this not been a high profile victim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, dounavilla said: As much as I hate to say it and I'm not jumping on some 'police hate' by saying this but I suspect this would have slipped under the radar had this not been a high profile victim. I doubt any death would have slipped under the radar, but it's certainly the case that having those witness statements across national media, about the death of a figure known to millions, will have left both police and IPCC investigators in no doubt that they need to be seen to act quickly. I see that other news today is about the family of another man killed by police tasers being paid compensation. Time we got this thing under control. Money compensation after the event is not the answer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 5 hours ago, Ingram85 said: Eh? Slightly cryptic question but I've posted some stuff over in the new Tasers thread in off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 There's an interesting article in today's Times about Dalian. Like the rest of the media it de-emphasises the fact that he was killed by the police by the use of a euphemism and goes as far as to suggest he died as a result of his health and financial problems rather than being assaulted three times with a taser. They say that he chose to live in an isolated house near Whitchurch because he couldn't stand being recognised by fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NurembergVillan Posted August 21, 2016 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted August 21, 2016 On 8/15/2016 at 12:53, Raver50032 said: I'm going to have that printed on canvas I think - nice work NV. And so he did. I sent him the hi resolution version and he's kindly sent me a pic of the canvas he's had printed up. If anyone else wants a copy of the hi-res version just DM me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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