bobzy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 1 minute ago, terrytini said: Nobody is suggesting he does that. If I am one of the 'people reading far too much into an article' I profoundly disagree with you. I haven't 'read' anything inot it. I think he is wrong in his view that players can't be judged on the last 12 months. I think they can, and I want our Manager to say so. I don't want him to 'keep them onside' I want them gone. I am genuinely staggered that there is now a view that he might 'get the best out of them'. I want him to say "certain experienced players failed in a variety of ways to contribute last season, so we have ripped their contracts up". I know new Managers get (and probably deserve) a honeymoon period but it is only a few weeks ago Villa Park was toxic, and for all his faults that wasn't Lerners doing , it was the players. But he's still got to judge which players he keeps? Honestly, I'm a fan of Aston Villa - not an anti-fan of, say, Gabby Agbonlahor. If Di Matteo uses all of the players who did so terribly last season and they performed well enough to get us promoted at the first time of asking, I'd be delighted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 18, 2016 I imagine RDM has said he won't judge players on the last 12 months, because there are some in the group who had a rubbish twelve months but who he has every desire to keep happy and make them an integral part of the team. Then there is Gabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: I imagine RDM has said he won't judge players on the last 12 months, because there are some in the group who had a rubbish twelve months but who he has every desire to keep happy and make them an integral part of the team. Then that is a tremendous error of judgement Edited July 18, 2016 by Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Just now, Richard said: Then that is a tremendous error of judgetment Getting rid of all of them is not realistic though is it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 18, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2016 @terrytini I think what he says to the press and what he believes inside will differ, and so they should IMO. You don't come out and slaughter your newly-acquired squad from day dot. You'd lose the respect not just of those in your crosshairs, but of those who are looking on and thinking 'is this how he operates?'. I'd expect someone like Pearson perhaps to take that less-reasoned approach, and yes it may work on some. But I think on the whole it would have a damaging effect on the long term cohesiveness of the setup. I don't mind seeing a manager capable of playing the diplomacy game to the press as long as the reality of the situation i.e. the actual ins and outs, more closely reflect the needs of the squad. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 1 minute ago, bobzy said: But he's still got to judge which players he keeps? Honestly, I'm a fan of Aston Villa - not an anti-fan of, say, Gabby Agbonlahor. If Di Matteo uses all of the players who did so terribly last season and they performed well enough to get us promoted at the first time of asking, I'd be delighted. It is the fact that he (with all that money to spend, and presumably having watched last seasons matches by now) thinks they are the best he can do. Why on earth would he (or anyone else for that matter) think that ? We were record breakingly bad. That is THESE players. It is no surprise that people (not you, you have mentioned getting promoted) who are saying "if he can use them etc" are in many cases also saying "its a bit much to get promoted !" Of course it is if we play those same players !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Getting rid of all of them is not realistic though is it. There is a difference between that and making them an integral part of the team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, Richard said: Then that is a tremendous error of judgement Not really, Grealish was rubbish, but should be in the team next year, Okore had a shocker but should be in the squad at least, Traore hardly got a game but should get a clean slate to show what he can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, BOF said: @terrytini I think what he says to the press and what he believes inside will differ, and so they should IMO. You don't come out and slaughter your newly-acquired squad from day dot. You'd lose the respect not just of those in your crosshairs, but of those who are looking on and thinking 'is this how he operates?'. I'd expect someone like Pearson perhaps to take that less-reasoned approach, and yes it may work on some. But I think on the whole it would have a damaging effect on the long term cohesiveness of the setup. I don't mind seeing a manager capable of playing the diplomacy game to the press as long as the reality of the situation i.e. the actual ins and outs, more closely reflect the needs of the squad. Well again I disagree. I think he would have GAINED the respect of the rest of the squad, and the fans, had he done it. In fact, had he done it, I think these Boards would have showed almost 100% support for him. We aren't talking about 10 players, we are talking somewhere between 4 and 6 in most fans eyes. And how many players are wishing it too ? He doesn't have to slaughter the whole Squad. If anything, singling out some actually enables him to tell the others, "you lot were ok but it was their fault" - as it is, he is effectively lumping them all together (it appears) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, terrytini said: It is the fact that he (with all that money to spend, and presumably having watched last seasons matches by now) thinks they are the best he can do. Why on earth would he (or anyone else for that matter) think that ? We were record breakingly bad. That is THESE players. It is no surprise that people (not you, you have mentioned getting promoted) who are saying "if he can use them etc" are in many cases also saying "its a bit much to get promoted !" Of course it is if we play those same players !! It doesn't mean he should throw money away though! I think we all feel angry and let down by certain players (some moreso than others, too) and I don't think any Villa fan would care if certain players were released from their contracts. However, at the same time, they are still our assets to be used should Di Matteo choose that he wants to use them. I don't expect Di Matteo to have followed Villa particularly closely last season, nor any time before that. He simply has to judge what's in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Just now, bobzy said: It doesn't mean he should throw money away though! I think we all feel angry and let down by certain players (some moreso than others, too) and I don't think any Villa fan would care if certain players were released from their contracts. However, at the same time, they are still our assets to be used should Di Matteo choose that he wants to use them. I don't expect Di Matteo to have followed Villa particularly closely last season, nor any time before that. He simply has to judge what's in front of him. You must be joking ?? The whole point is they are NOT assets !! They took us down !! YOU didn't, Krulak didn't, They did. My entire point is there ar ea group of players who anyone who has watched us knows are not assets, they are liabilities. Which leads me to your next point. A Manager on however many million and it is suggested he might not KNOW what happened last year ? Surely he has watched every game, talked to everyone he can ? My God, if he is just "judging on what is in front of him" we might as well pack up and go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 minutes ago, terrytini said: Y My God, if he is just "judging on what is in front of him" we might as well pack up and go home. Looking at our record there last season I would not recommend it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 24 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Getting rid of all of them is not realistic though is it. Think about it like this. Are we saying we wont be able to shift the shit players? Well if thats the case then they are with us until their contracts run down and we have several Nzogbia type situations. They will hardly play and contribute nothing apart from bad atmosphere stinking the club out and effectively taking up a squad place and wages from someone else and preventing us from improving. If the whole idea is that we should improve and there are funds available then cutting losses on some of them now may be a huge benefit. Players like Lescott, Guzan, Gabby, Bacuna if these are the ones we believe we cannot get rid of them to another club and we all know they will be shit for us, what do we do? I would suggest that cancelling a few contracts would be the wisest move if we are sure no one wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted July 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 18, 2016 I'm willing to cut RDM some slack here. He's come in with anyone who knows anything about the players from a coaching/managerial perspective from last season long since departed. He's judging on what he has seen in the last 2 weeks of training - and that isn't enough to form an opinion. What's more, the senior players have been here before through numerous managers - they know how to play this particular little game and are likely talking the talk. My hope is that it doesn't take him too long to realise their true worth and line up suitable replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 18, 2016 Just now, Richard said: Think about it like this. Are we saying we wont be able to shift the shit players? Well if thats the case then they are with us until their contracts run down and we have several Nzogbia type situations. They will hardly play and contribute nothing apart from bad atmosphere stinking the club out and effectively taking up a squad place and wages from someone else and preventing us from improving. If the whole idea is that we should improve and there are funds available then cutting losses on some of them now may be a huge benefit. Players like Lescott, Guzan, Gabby, Bacuna if these are the ones we believe we cannot get rid of them to another club and we all know they will be shit for us, what do we do? I would suggest that cancelling a few contracts would be the wisest move if we are sure no one wants them. I know RDM has a balloon for a head on which someone has drawn a face, but I'm reasonably confident that it isn't actually a balloon, and that he knows Lescott, Gabby, Bacuna and Richards are turd. The fact they ain't gone yet doesn't mean they are back in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 15 minutes ago, terrytini said: You must be joking ?? The whole point is they are NOT assets !! They took us down !! YOU didn't, Krulak didn't, They did. My entire point is there ar ea group of players who anyone who has watched us knows are not assets, they are liabilities. Which leads me to your next point. A Manager on however many million and it is suggested he might not KNOW what happened last year ? Surely he has watched every game, talked to everyone he can ? My God, if he is just "judging on what is in front of him" we might as well pack up and go home. a] Of course they're assets. Yes, they got us relegated. I'm not aware of any relegated team just getting rid of all their players - maybe it's happened before? I highly doubt it, though. b] He knows what happened last year - hence taking on a recently relegated club! - but I don't think he'll have followed Villa particularly closely. We need to "rebuild" - but I don't think he necessarily knows exactly where his problems lie (aside from those he's addressed quickly, I'd say - Elphick for leadership and Gollini for a goalkeeper). Is Gestede a problem or can he get goals from him? Is Richards a problem or will his athleticism work for him in the Championship where it didn't in the Premier League? etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Just now, Jareth said: I know RDM has a balloon for a head on which someone has drawn a face, but I'm reasonably confident that it isn't actually a balloon, and that he knows Lescott, Gabby, Bacuna and Richards are turd. The fact they ain't gone yet doesn't mean they are back in the fold. You need to read my posts as in relation to the ones they are answering and quoting I think it will help the understanding of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 18, 2016 Just now, Richard said: You need to read my posts as in relation to the ones they are answering and quoting I think it will help the understanding of them Well I have had trouble sleeping lately... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 minutes ago, Richard said: Think about it like this. Are we saying we wont be able to shift the shit players? Well if thats the case then they are with us until their contracts run down and we have several Nzogbia type situations. They will hardly play and contribute nothing apart from bad atmosphere stinking the club out and effectively taking up a squad place and wages from someone else and preventing us from improving. If the whole idea is that we should improve and there are funds available then cutting losses on some of them now may be a huge benefit. Players like Lescott, Guzan, Gabby, Bacuna if these are the ones we believe we cannot get rid of them to another club and we all know they will be shit for us, what do we do? I would suggest that cancelling a few contracts would be the wisest move if we are sure no one wants them. This is the problem right now. There's no way everything has been analysed within our squad of players yet. There are a hell of a lot of ifs and still 6 or so weeks to go to address them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) It was the managers who relegated us last season. However if Di Matteo is serious about turning the corner with the current players he has to hold the players responsible. Saying they can't be judged on the last 12 months is a cop out for them and won't help his cause at all. Edited July 18, 2016 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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