Villa Park redevelopment

[Mic09]

24 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said:

 

 

Another boring bowl. Meh.

[Kingman]

What stadium is that?

[sidcow]

Whatever the attendance figure for Wolves (which was clearly wrong*) it was announced as a sell out. 

Every game so far has been a sell out and probably every game in the near future will be a sell out.  My question is does anyone know our record for the number of consecutive sell outs.  We are surely heading for a modern record. 

* There was a game last season where the announced attendance was 100% definitely far lower than the actual attendance.  If there were 1000 empty seats against Wolves the I am a Dutch man.  Why do these anomalies occur? 

[chips'ngravy]

8 hours ago, sidcow said:

* There was a game last season where the announced attendance was 100% definitely far lower than the actual attendance.  If there were 1000 empty seats against Wolves the I am a Dutch man.  Why do these anomalies occur? 

That was Swansea in the cup, wasn't it? From memory it was given as 30k when it looked close to a sell out. I think that was also free for season ticket holders so maybe it's an issue with that.

[brommy]

On 27/10/2019 at 00:27, Kingman said:

What stadium is that?

Stade de Photoshoppe.

[brommy]

12 hours ago, sidcow said:

Whatever the attendance figure for Wolves (which was clearly wrong*) it was announced as a sell out. 

Every game so far has been a sell out and probably every game in the near future will be a sell out.  My question is does anyone know our record for the number of consecutive sell outs.  We are surely heading for a modern record. 

* There was a game last season where the announced attendance was 100% definitely far lower than the actual attendance.  If there were 1000 empty seats against Wolves the I am a Dutch man.  Why do these anomalies occur? 

My theory on the apparent anomaly:

it’s a lot easier to spot empty seats when they are in blocks rather than scattered around. Against wulves there were a couple of blocks empty and netting over the front few rows in the Upper North Stand. There were also empty blocks for segregation in the Lower.

What wasn’t so easily visible were the empty seats scattered around the Trinity and DE stands. Fans sat either side of an empty seat tend to ‘spread out’ which makes the empty seat less obvious. What looked like only 1 in 20 was probably more like 1 empty in 10 or 12 sets but that adds up to a couple of thousand plus probably another 500 or so thinly scattered across the Upper and Lower Holte.

I assume it was down to some season ticket holders not realising it was included and some season ticket holders being away over the half term school holiday.

[sidcow]

Not in a billion years were there 6,000 empty seats.  Not a chance. Something else happens to cause the anomaly.  As someone else said it also happened last year in a cup game v Swansea. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by sidcow

[mikeyp102]

26 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Not in a billion years were there 6,000 empty seats.  Not a chance.

There probably was, upper north, the middle area which is bigger seats, was not used by wolves (I’m guessing not sold). Then there was an area lower north to the left as you look at it from the Holte, that was again not in use. Each of those areas were probably 2k each. Then you’re looking at 2k of seats throughout the rest of the stadium which is easily done. 

[sidcow]

4 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

There probably was, upper north, the middle area which is bigger seats, was not used by wolves (I’m guessing not sold). Then there was an area lower north to the left as you look at it from the Holte, that was again not in use. Each of those areas were probably 2k each. Then you’re looking at 2k of seats throughout the rest of the stadium which is easily done. 

Those 2 patches of empty seats in North stand was probably 200 or so lower and upper 3 or 400 only.  They had that entire end only holds about 6000 by your reckoning it was 2 thirds empty? 

[mikeyp102]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

Those 2 patches of empty seats in North stand was probably 200 or so lower and upper 3 or 400 only.  They had that entire end only holds about 6000 by your reckoning it was 2 thirds empty? 

Oh ok may be off with my figures then. 

[villa4europe]

seen someone say the club have stated there's "exciting" news on the way next week with regards to the VP redevelopment, cant find a link anywhere though

most likely to be something to do with the big screens and almost definitely a full reveal of what they're doing once the club shop / ticket office has gone

[wilko154]

 

 

[sne]

9 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

 

 

New VAR screens for the refs to use?

Still a bit small.

[Dave-R]

VAR banned from VP lol best news ever that would be and any VAR officials attempting to enter VP get automatically destroyed by the new drone system being installed, they are seek and destroy on anything VAR.

On a serious note:

I'd like the announcement of our ground going Oval.

Or new stadium plans.

Allowing the ladies to always play at VP.

A shock early signing, we can make them can't we? just we can't bring them in yet I think.

Free Pies, Beer and Bovril on match day 3 per person, that reaching the sky abit .

Kevin Friend perma banned from VP and our games.

 

[Dave-R]

47 minutes ago, sne said:

New VAR screens for the refs to use?

Still a bit small.

Would be hilarious if it's in black and white. 

Thermal imaging I could imagine.

Isn't that just a small section of the full screen?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Dave-R

[The Fun Factory]

It would be progress if with the new screens you can actually see the minutes played during the match. Or perhaps I need a eye test.

[sidcow]

7 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

It would be progress if with the new screens you can actually see the minutes played during the match. Or perhaps I need a eye test.

I always look at the scoreboard above the corner flag restaurant. 

[Lichfield Dean]

In the Honouring Ron Saunders thread my keen eyes spotted this:

Bit disappointing if this means the club aren't looking to build a new North Stand, although I guess there aren't any timescales mentioned by @OutByEaster? so it might be just in the immediate future that they have no plans?

[VillaJ100]

There's a strong chance we'll be relegated. They aren't going to be fannying around spending money to rebuild stand until if/when we have been reestablished back in the mid table of the prem for a number of years. 

[OutByEaster?]

I've been having a think on this and the best I can come up with is this ramble.

When I was little...

Wait, sorry.

When I was very young, Villa Park had a capacity of 48,000. I remember it exactly as that, it might not be perfectly precise, but that's how i remember it and therefore it's always seemed to me to be the "right” capacity; the one that Villa Park should have. Those dreadful clickbait things that you see that list grounds by size, the youtube videos of England’s biggest grounds, I see those and I cast envious glances at the extra seats of others, I want to be higher in those lists. Aston Villa are a massive club, potentially at least, we're huge and it's the conceit of every fan of every club to imagine their team at the peak of its powers. This year, we've shown a hint of those powers in our attendances, 30,000 season ticket holders, 20,000 members looking to hoover up the remaining 7,000 tickets and still, at least to my mind, a bank of casual supporters that numbers as many again - we're a sellout, Villa Park is full. 

So, I want a Villa Park that's bigger, I want more seats. The North Stand has less seats than the Lower Holte End and I reckon it would be quite possible to add the 6,000 seats needed to bring us to our proper capacity by redeveloping that end of the ground - the demand is there, we have the money and, well, the North Stand doesn't really hack it anymore.

I’m lucky enough, through VIllatalk, to have attended a couple of meetings with our CEO and have heard him talk about this. Just before the start of the season, he was asked about it and said there were no plans, either in the immediate or in any current planning to redevelop the North Stand - but at that meeting, he also said that the club didn’t anticipate having to put a ceiling on season ticket sales or having waiting lists of people wanting to get into Villa Park.

Brilliantly, all that stuff has since happened - we now have a situation where league games barely make general sale, and where even membership doesn’t guarantee a ticket. The ground is full, week in and week out, the atmosphere has been fantastic and we’re on the verge of setting a record for consecutive attendances of over 40,000 that goes back to the 1940’s.

It’s impressive, and armed with those numbers we went back to Mr Purslow this week and asked him again about ground development - surely now was the time to start the process of increasing capacity and replacing the North Stand?

He said No.

He talked a lot about doing things with Villa Park, about the things that have already been done - some of the really good things around the ground, some of the things that have made it look better, feel better and work better for fans. He wouldn’t tell us (and I can tell you it’s pretty much impossible to try to force him to tell you anything he doesn’t want to) about the plans for the area behind the North Stand - plans I have a feeling we’ll find out about in the next few months - but he was clear that the redevelopment of the North Stand itself isn’t in his plans; not that it isn’t in his plans for this summer, but that it’s not in his plans. He talked about sensible business’s having one, three and five year plans and he talked about some of the other ways in which he will develop Aston Villa - but the redevelopment of the North Stand isn’t currently on any horizon. He said no.

It made me sad and got me thinking.

I guess there are a couple of different things about increasing capacity - firstly there are some practicalities to consider:

- we’d have to operate on a reduced capacity of around 33,000 for what probably amounts to almost two seasons - which mean unless you’re taking season tickets away from people there would be no other tickets on sale at Villa Park for two years. That’s a hard sell to people who can’t get a season ticket but want to see us play.

- it’s not cheap - to knock down the current stand and build another one with 6,000 extra seats would cost you a fortune - Liverpools extended grandstand cost £110m - a new North Stand would most likely set us back £70-80m. For that you get 6,000 seats - filled twenty times a season at £30 each would give you £3.6m in additional revenues, add in the extra stuff people buy on match days and you’re looking at not much over £4m extra a year. 

- you have to fill it - there were calls in 2007-08 when we hit a 40k average for the first time in over fifty years to expand then, to take advantage of success and rebuild -  but the success faded almost immediately and the demand went with it. In the Championship we’d have had nothing but another 6,000 empty seats and a lot more debt.

Practical schmactical, the small boy in me says - we’ve got money and spending on your ground doesn’t count against FFP. So why not take a chance, be confident and get started?

But, I think I learned something this week - it’s mostly to do with some things that Mr Purslow said and partly to do with FFP, but I think I’m nearer to understanding the reasoning behind not having a plan in place to redevelop. i should say up front, I’m just a fan and I’m joining together a number of different things Mr Purslow said, it’s absolutely not my intention to speak for him or put words in his mouth (especially since I find him slightly scary)  I am just some wazzock trying to figure stuff out.

At the meeting, one of the things we were talking about was ticket prices, and as part of that discussion, Mr Purslow said that match day incomes now only make up about 10-15% of the income of most clubs. I’m not sure where we are in that range, but I’m guessing it applies. It’s increasingly less important - as a fan, I’m hoping that means our season ticket prices can remain reasonable - but it’s important to note that with so much income coming from other areas, having a bigger ground doesn’t make a massive impact on your all-important top line. Increasing capacity by 6,000 turns 14% into 15%.

We also asked him about growing the fanbase, and being an old fashioned type with a grey beard, in my head I was interested in how we’d ensure that Villa was the key club in areas like Stratford, Lichfield, Bromsgrove, Tamworth, Redditch and as far way as Burton and Oxford - how we could ensure that those people would grow up as Villa fans and ensure that Villa Park was always full.

His answer talked mostly about Egypt. 

He talked about North America, Australia, Scandinavia, but mostly about North Africa and Egypt - the influence that our having Egyptian players was having on our ability to grow the fanbase. Which at the time I found interesting enough, but the significance of which has since really hit home to me. These are the fans the club wants and the vast majority of them will never come to Villa Park. They’ll never have any impact on that 10-15% of our income - they live, support and exist in that other 85% of supporting the club. They watch us on TV and they buy stuff with Villa on it. They also have an influence on the countries they’re in - if Villa are the hot sports franchise in Egypt; owned by an Egyptian and with two of the three most prominent Egyptian players - then there are Egyptian companies that will want to get in on the act - Egyptian TV companies, Egyptian cereal companies - all sorts of people. The Premier League brings Egyptians, Americans, Moroccans and Swedes, tens of millions of potential Villa fans looking to share in our passion, our misery and our occasional joy.

One of the effects of FFP is that it places a demand on clubs to maximise their incomes - your spending is controlled by what you can bring in, the top line matters and there are limits on what owners can add to that. Each and every club needs to eke out every penny from every fan opportunity. Now as we’ve said, spending on infrastructure and new stands and the like isn’t directly linked to FFP spending - but for the moment, it might well be that our owners would prefer to invest in areas that are more directly football related - it might be that they need to until such time as we’re generating enough income to allow them not to. Manchester City have worked their socks off in increasing their revenues, Chelsea did it too - it frees teams up to spend not just more, but to spend in the areas they want to.

For us, that means picking the lowest hanging fruit first. Here’s an example; Trezeguet has over four million instagram followers, to put that into perspective, Aston Villa has less than half a million and Spurs have two million. For Villa that means there’s an opportunity to get each of them to buy something Aston Villa - if might be a Trezeguet home shirt at £73.95, or it might be a one off TV pass to watch a game on Amazon - but if you can get even just £1.00 out of each of them - you make more than that expanded North Stand would in a season, and your outlay is almost zero.

It’s just an example - one of many ways in which the way that Christian Purslow thinks about football is very different to the way most of us do - the different ways that the people currently running the club are looking at making money are pretty wide ranging and to an extent counter intuitive - but they’re likely to be effective, they’re likely to do more for the club than making sure a bloke in Burton can buy a season ticket.

Bournemouth made £135m last year while we made £68m in the Championship - our average attendance was three times their capacity - it’s no longer a decisive factor. 

I guess the world has changed since I was a ten year old dreamer, and for what it’s worth, I still want that redeveloped North Stand, I still want to brag about our attendances and I still want to sit there and think about how ‘big’ we are as a club, me and 47,999 other Villa fans - I’m still a dreamer, albeit an older one.

Christian Purslow will decide on my dreams and his is a mind unfettered by sentiment. 

In the cold black and white of the balance sheet, redeveloping the North Stand isn’t the best way to increase revenues and increasing revenues is the single most important thing that he has to do in order to push the club forward and allow us to change things on the pitch.

Given its limits in terms of income generation, and the practical implications, right now, increased attendance is a vanity project - a cherry for a cake he’s still baking.

That cake needs us to stay in this league, to establish ourselves, to use that to get sponsorship deals, larger global fanbases, better income from our commercial endeavours - there’s a lot of money in all that stuff - once we’ve got it, I hope we can come back to the cherry. He’s not immune to the ideas of dreamers, football is a business unlike any other, he’ll understand the desire for more seats, he’ll most likely share it - but he’ll not invest in a daydream, and he's not going to lose any sleep on my inner child's sulk.

So, Mr Purslow says “No” - we’re not getting a redeveloped North Stand any time soon and it makes me sad. I’m sure he cares little about my sad inner child, because he’s working on making this club one that can win and one that will make all of us happy. I think it probably makes him a good CEO.

If I was in charge, the bulldozers would be waiting on Witton Lane as you read this and we’d be starting a new stand in the summer. You’re better off with him than me. I can dream a different dream for now, I think we’ll be a while coming back to this one - but in terms of what we're trying to do, we're better off awake.

It feels like we need a new North Stand - but our immediate future might not be based on how we feel.