Tony Xia (no longer involved with AVFC)

[PompeyVillan]

19 hours ago, WaccoeOnline said:

Sorry to continue to pop by.  But its fascinating seeing you guys go through pretty much all the stuff we've done multiple times in the last 12 years.  Bottom line is that you have - at best - a chancer of an owner who looks like he gambled more than you could afford to lose and now cant dig you out of it.  With a fair likelihood that the reality of the situation is far worse than what has yet been publicly revealed (in our experience it almost always is).  Given that, it seems laughable that any of you are sticking to defending your owner and suggesting blame doesn't ultimately lie with him for the state you are in.  He owns the club, chooses the senior employees, is responsible for your clubs financial health.  And has clearly messed it up so severely you're going to have to sell your best players, and probably half of your car parks just to get to the end of the year.  

Unfortunately, for some fans its like stockholm syndrome with owners.  No matter how objectively terrible, crooked, incompetent or evil, a section of the fanbase (unfortunately for us quite a large one when we were dealing with the likes of Bates, Cellino and GFH) will continue to find excuses for them or even support them even when everything is falling at part.  At times seeming to value loyalty to the idiot wrecking owner than to club or fellow fans.  Making it harder for decent and sensible fans to push together to get them out and the club able to start to rebuild.

Of course from the outside its darkly funny to see others being lined up to suffer as badly as us (or even a fraction as badly as us).  But if you really love your team, you'll learn from all the crap we went through, and at least try to stay united as a fan base, and recognise that if there is blame for what is going wrong it sits fairly with the guy who made the decision to buy your club and who has for whatever reason (idiocy? criminality? walter mitty delusions? money laundering? utter incomptence) left you on the edge of what could be a very deep hole.

Oh yeah, and if your owner is lying to you about small things, it usually means he is lying to you about almost everything else, including the really important stuff.  If an owner starts lying to you about anything, however trivial, alarm bells ought be going off all over the place.

We don't have enough information to make any accurate judgements. We know the financial situation is less than ideal but we don't know the true extent of the issues. To suggest it's a Leeds type scenario is making assumptions. I wouldn't say it was a totally unfair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.

That's not defending the owner, because I've criticised him massively, I want him gone. 

To put the club in a #### or bust situation is crazy, I can't believe he has. Equally we don't know how 'bust' we are. 

Let's wait and see what happens eh, there's not a huge amount we as fans can do anyway.  

Edited June 17, 2018 by PompeyVillan

[Guest av1]

1 minute ago, PompeyVillan said:

We don't have enough information to make any accurate judgements. We know the financial situation is less than ideal but we don't know the true extent of the issues. To suggest it's a Leeds type scenario is making assumptions. I wouldn't say it was a totally unfair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.

That's not defending the owner, because I've criticised him massively, I want him gone. 

To put the club in a shit or bust situation is crazy, I can't believe he has. Equally we don't know how 'bust' we are. 

Let's wait and see what happens eh, there's not a huge amount we as fans can do anyway.  

Absolutely. 

At this point we know that he is a shit businessman who clearly hasn't got a clue about running a football club. 

However, with the information available, to call him a crook, a fraud, chancer, conman etc is premature and complete conjecture.  

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

12 hours ago, av1 said:

However, with the information available, to call him a crook, a fraud, chancer, conman etc is premature and complete conjecture.  

Im calling Wyness these things though and I stand by it. 

[DCJonah]

17 hours ago, Jareth said:

Sorry chaps, and I would say this, but football is fickle. We beat Fulham and Tony gets lauded for gambling and winning, not one voice of dissent would be heard. Lose and he's the worst owner ever. I will not forget what this club was when we got relegated, or what has happened the last two years. And I thank Tony for that, regardless of how it has turned out. What matters most now is how we recover, and it looks like things are in place to achieve this. I will be gutted if we have to flog Grealish to pay for the Mcormack and Richards contracts etc, but it ain't all Tony's fault. Yes the buck stops with him, so I hope he knows that and makes sure that when he finally sells up, it is from a positive position, because he has stuck with us and turned it around. It is far to easy to point fingers when it doesn't go well. 

Change Tony to Randy and this is almost identical to how some went on the defensive when questions first started to be asked. Amazing how similar the blind faith is to back then.

The state the club was in when he bought it.

If we had got top 4 he would have been lauded for gambling 

Signs we will recover = signing bent shows lerner is ready to go again. 

Remarkable just how similar it is becoming.  I'm surprised people are so eager to be conned again. I hope xia is the owner we hoped he was, but after recent events it will take clear actions to prove it, not blind faith like the last owner had for years. 

[WaccoeOnline]

13 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

We don't have enough information to make any accurate judgements. We know the financial situation is less than ideal but we don't know the true extent of the issues. To suggest it's a Leeds type scenario is making assumptions. I wouldn't say it was a totally unfair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.

That's not defending the owner, because I've criticised him massively, I want him gone. 

To put the club in a shit or bust situation is crazy, I can't believe he has. Equally we don't know how 'bust' we are. 

Let's wait and see what happens eh, there's not a huge amount we as fans can do anyway.  

 

13 hours ago, av1 said:

Absolutely. 

At this point we know that he is a shit businessman who clearly hasn't got a clue about running a football club. 

However, with the information available, to call him a crook, a fraud, chancer, conman etc is premature and complete conjecture.  

 

You see this is the stuff that “sensible” voices kept saying at Leeds.  And then it turned out - repeatedly - we were way more ****ed than even the worst worriers were worried about.

Looking back those saying “no proof so far”, “too early to be certain they are lying crooks”, “it’s all conjecture and conspiracy”, “I’m willing to give them a chance” were as wrong and as damaging to fan unity as those who cynically threw in their lot with the varied ****ers who were ruining us.

It made ramping up the pressure to move the scum who wrecked us on much harder and allowed them to get away with degrading  our club for that much longer.  It also fed the idea that those who wanted change were somehow disloyal to the club - “just causing trouble”, “support the club or **** off home” and the idea that somehow journalists teasing away at the truth had an agenda to damage the club (when often the reverse was the case), etc.

Im sure those “sensible heads” got a whole load of satisfaction from showing how much more mature and stable they were than those desperately worried about the future of our club.  Looking back, they were the idiots getting it very wrong.  Although as ever these types in time move on without shame to find other things to be smug and superior about on their forums of choice (though hopefully in our case with our crises seemingly over, stuff that is less important to the future of our club).

 

 

[dounavilla]

16 minutes ago, WaccoeOnline said:

 

You see this is the stuff that “sensible” voices kept saying at Leeds.  And then it turned out - repeatedly - we were way more ****ed than even the worst worriers were worried about.

Looking back those saying “no proof so far”, “too early to be certain they are lying crooks”, “it’s all conjecture and conspiracy”, “I’m willing to give them a chance” were as wrong and as damaging to fan unity as those who cynically threw in their lot with the varied ****ers who were ruining us.

It made ramping up the pressure to move the scum who wrecked us on much harder and allowed them to get away with degrading  our club for that much longer.  It also fed the idea that those who wanted change were somehow disloyal to the club - “just causing trouble”, “support the club or **** off home” and the idea that somehow journalists teasing away at the truth had an agenda to damage the club (when often the reverse was the case), etc.

Im sure those “sensible heads” got a whole load of satisfaction from showing how much more mature and stable they were than those desperately worried about the future of our club.  Looking back, they were the idiots getting it very wrong.  Although as ever these types in time move on without shame to find other things to be smug and superior about on their forums of choice (though hopefully in our case with our crises seemingly over, stuff that is less important to the future of our club).

 

 

What's your agenda on here ?

[PompeyVillan]

4 hours ago, WaccoeOnline said:

 

You see this is the stuff that “sensible” voices kept saying at Leeds.  And then it turned out - repeatedly - we were way more ****ed than even the worst worriers were worried about.

Looking back those saying “no proof so far”, “too early to be certain they are lying crooks”, “it’s all conjecture and conspiracy”, “I’m willing to give them a chance” were as wrong and as damaging to fan unity as those who cynically threw in their lot with the varied ****ers who were ruining us.

It made ramping up the pressure to move the scum who wrecked us on much harder and allowed them to get away with degrading  our club for that much longer.  It also fed the idea that those who wanted change were somehow disloyal to the club - “just causing trouble”, “support the club or **** off home” and the idea that somehow journalists teasing away at the truth had an agenda to damage the club (when often the reverse was the case), etc.

Im sure those “sensible heads” got a whole load of satisfaction from showing how much more mature and stable they were than those desperately worried about the future of our club.  Looking back, they were the idiots getting it very wrong.  Although as ever these types in time move on without shame to find other things to be smug and superior about on their forums of choice (though hopefully in our case with our crises seemingly over, stuff that is less important to the future of our club).

 

 

I think you're spectacularly missing the point. It's got nothing to do with being seen to be 'sensible'. It's about taking what evidence is in front of you and making as an informed judgment as possible. 

If people don't agree with your frankly fatalistic view of what is happening, that doesn't make them 'smug' or 'idiots'.

You quoted me, so I assume you think I'm  defending Xia. Which whilst I don't need to justify to you, I clearly dont. I'm just not going to crap the bed because a Leeds fan with PTSD has come on VT and told us all how sad they still are.

Don't you worry about us though chap, we know how to protest if we need to. I should imagine @dont_do_it_doug. and the like are dusitng off their banners as we speak. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by PompeyVillan

[WaccoeOnline]

4 minutes ago, dounavilla said:

What's your agenda on here ?

Nowt, mate.  Villa are a decent club, steeped in history like ours is/was.  Down on its luck like we were.  Frankly think its shocking that community institutions that are vulnerable can be bought by chancers and borderline crooks and then senselessly trashed.  Just sharing insight from our plight - we've gone through three owners who should never have been let near us and wasted fifteen or so years at the bottom of the pile.  Lots of clubs go through difficulties, but few become laughing stocks/pity cases like we ended up.  Looking from the outside, it looks like you guys are being lined up to be the next big club shafted by bad owners (the only question outstanding is how bad), so offering views from a fanbase thats been there.  Happy to leave you to it, if you'd prefer.

[PompeyVillan]

2 hours ago, WaccoeOnline said:

Nowt, mate.  Villa are a decent club, steeped in history like ours is/was.  Down on its luck like we were.  Frankly think its shocking that community institutions that are vulnerable can be bought by chancers and borderline crooks and then senselessly trashed.  Just sharing insight from our plight - we've gone through three owners who should never have been let near us and wasted fifteen or so years at the bottom of the pile.  Lots of clubs go through difficulties, but few become laughing stocks/pity cases like we ended up.  Looking from the outside, it looks like you guys are being lined up to be the next big club shafted by bad owners (the only question outstanding is how bad), so offering views from a fanbase thats been there.  Happy to leave you to it, if you'd prefer.

If you're going to make a habit of seemingly blaming Villa fans for what is happening you're just going to wind people up. It pissed me off that you might suggest that any one of us would be apologists for the mistakes made by those running the club and therefore part of the problem. Even worse that we get off on it.

We're not a club with our head in the sand, we've been mismanaged for years and we're well aware of it, we don't need angry Leeds fans coming on here telling us we're idiots if we don't believe just yet that the apocalypse situation that Leeds fans have experienced is happening to us.

[weedman]

2 hours ago, WaccoeOnline said:

 

You see this is the stuff that “sensible” voices kept saying at Leeds.  And then it turned out - repeatedly - we were way more ****ed than even the worst worriers were worried about.

Looking back those saying “no proof so far”, “too early to be certain they are lying crooks”, “it’s all conjecture and conspiracy”, “I’m willing to give them a chance” were as wrong and as damaging to fan unity as those who cynically threw in their lot with the varied ****ers who were ruining us.

It made ramping up the pressure to move the scum who wrecked us on much harder and allowed them to get away with degrading  our club for that much longer.  It also fed the idea that those who wanted change were somehow disloyal to the club - “just causing trouble”, “support the club or **** off home” and the idea that somehow journalists teasing away at the truth had an agenda to damage the club (when often the reverse was the case), etc.

Im sure those “sensible heads” got a whole load of satisfaction from showing how much more mature and stable they were than those desperately worried about the future of our club.  Looking back, they were the idiots getting it very wrong.  Although as ever these types in time move on without shame to find other things to be smug and superior about on their forums of choice (though hopefully in our case with our crises seemingly over, stuff that is less important to the future of our club).

 

 

This is nonsense. Not every financial problem is comparable to bloody Leeds, some may be, most probably won't be. Automatically assuming worst case scenario doesn't make it right, anymore than it makes those who don't wrong or "idiots" 

We may be totally screwed and another Leeds waiting to happen, but by the same token we may be nowhere near as bad as that and a couple of player sales and high earning wasters off the books over the next couple of years and we're fine. The point is nobody really knows as of yet, jumping to conclusions (whichever side that happens to be on) is wrong, even if it turns out that you're right. 

You think people who wait for facts before making judgements are doing it to be smug, but those that blindly pick a side and literally come on to other teams message board years or decades later to brag about how "right they were all along" are the sensible ones? Jog on mate 

[DCJonah]

I think his point was, that a lot of fans chose to defend the owners, making it difficult for serious questions to be asked. 

I think at this point here that could well become a problem. Far too many seem to get angry when questions and concerns are raised. 

[Jareth]

23 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think his point was, that a lot of fans chose to defend the owners, making it difficult for serious questions to be asked. 

If this viewpoint has felt muzzled it certainly hasn't prevented it from being aired, regularly and often without evidence. 

[PompeyVillan]

30 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think his point was, that a lot of fans chose to defend the owners, making it difficult for serious questions to be asked. 

I think at this point here that could well become a problem. Far too many seem to get angry when questions and concerns are raised. 

I dont think that's true at all. If people disagreeing with you upsets you enough to not post your view, that's your problem. VT is a well moderated platform where poor behaviour isn't tolerated. 

Just to clarify my position again, I don't want to ask questions of Xia, I want him gone. I want more fan representation in the club, a new owner that won't promise Champion's League domination, but will promise to forge a distinct Villa identity and a innovative long term approach that leverages our large fanbase, revenue potential and catchment for young players. 

And while the situation obviously isn't great, I'm not going to believe that the sky is falling in, just because it happened to Leeds. There's not clear evidence for that yet. 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Change Tony to Randy and this is almost identical to how some went on the defensive when questions first started to be asked. Amazing how similar the blind faith is to back then.

The state the club was in when he bought it.

If we had got top 4 he would have been lauded for gambling 

Signs we will recover = signing bent shows lerner is ready to go again. 

Remarkable just how similar it is becoming.  I'm surprised people are so eager to be conned again. I hope xia is the owner we hoped he was, but after recent events it will take clear actions to prove it, not blind faith like the last owner had for years. 

I don't think it's so much Blind Faith, but more folk looking to be positive.....I don't really know what we do either way, except  support the team....I guess part and parcel of being a fan is looking on the bright side.

I can perfectly understand your use of the word, but it tends to insinuate a tad of being a lemming....when I don't think that is quite fair.

The truth is, we have never been presented with a clear and transparent administration to judge properly.....That has been the case in all the years, I have been supporting the club. I can't see that changing irrespective of who owns the club.....so all these changes can look promising, when in fact its just more of the same,

HDE had his style, which was intransigent, but frugal, that didn't suit, most of us, but I guess hindsight tells us more......I was one of those who wanted him out.....but its hard to find anyone that ticks all the boxes, I guess we all plump for the one that suits us in terms of damage limitation and how we see it.

What ever we have achieved on the pitch appears to be despite them thats running it.....I can go back to the Normansells and I guess some, can go back further.....its always more or less, been the same.

Unless a (football) life changing buyer comes in with billions and a bored life, l can only see us just  plodding on.....and attracting chancers who have the best of intentions ( for themselves)

Edited June 17, 2018 by TRO

[VillanousOne]

19 hours ago, NoelVilla said:

I'm very much at wait and see right now. Could be Wyness being a crook aswell as Xia being a fraud. Don't trust the media or the ITK's on this. Actions will tell.

This.

At the moment the press are feeding on anything they can dig up to create a headline and produce click bait. This makes it impossible to find much truth amongst the horse crap and vulture's getting a buzz off the club's demise.

Even the so called 'meetings' that are meant to have taken place, 'things said' about budgets, wage bills etc are all absolute speculation.

Before the playoff final we knew already that we had gambled heavily on promotion and would be hit hard by FFP, we had to rely on loans rather than transfers over two windows. So we already new a huge wage bill meant players would need to be sold and cutbacks made. 

The only other facts we have are a unpaid tax bill and cash flow problems, I am not playing down the significance of this or defending the club or Xia, just saying that this aside we don't know what money Xia has or doesn't, if there will be more bills such as unpaid transfers fees, wages, tax bills etc. etc. that we will have issues paying. The Westwood fee thing is another story that is probably true but again fits the press narrative.

Even the reasons why Wyness was dismissed are conjecture, many presume he was either trying to get investment for or sell the club without Xia's consent or went too far. Maybe was in it for himself and part of new consortium to buy the club. Maybe he did what he did as he believed the club couldn't fund it's debts and commitments.

But aside from this we don't know anything, doesn't mean we are not in serious trouble just trying to say that there are very few facts and statements out there and the less we know the worse it gets. 

The club owe it to the fans to tell us what the **** is happening. The fact they don't tells us things must be bad.
 

 

 

 

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, WaccoeOnline said:

Nowt, mate.  Villa are a decent club, steeped in history like ours is/was.  Down on its luck like we were.  Frankly think its shocking that community institutions that are vulnerable can be bought by chancers and borderline crooks and then senselessly trashed.  Just sharing insight from our plight - we've gone through three owners who should never have been let near us and wasted fifteen or so years at the bottom of the pile.  Lots of clubs go through difficulties, but few become laughing stocks/pity cases like we ended up.  Looking from the outside, it looks like you guys are being lined up to be the next big club shafted by bad owners (the only question outstanding is how bad), so offering views from a fanbase thats been there.  Happy to leave you to it, if you'd prefer.

Wacco.....I agree of much of what you say and as our football clubs are not a normal business in so much as they have to operate withing the confines of the football league and FA ....I am surprised that the Football Authorities, do not show more concern and like Martin Samuel has eloquently put.....steer away from punitive measures and Help teams, even if its not financial. When big teams go with high overheads, maybe a special case format might be looked at.

I can only speak for myself, I have never felt joy at Leeds Utd's plight or any other club, including our cousins across the road......competition on the pitch is fine but , survival is whole different ball game to me.The life and death of a football club needs a different perspective from the tribal rantings of the terraces, it threatens very existence of the sport we all love.

You will always get those that are unsure where the borderline of banter and threatening behaviour and those that take the mick or are down right insulting, tragically, some don't know the difference.

Leeds Utd, Aston Villa or any other club that has graced the pitches of England with players that have become household names....will never be a laughing stock or a pity case, they have achieved too much in the past for that, they have made their mark.....and they will be back.

Its took Wolves some time and blimey they have had their dark days.....every dog has his day, we are just not perhaps, having ours.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by TRO

[TheEgo]

On 16/06/2018 at 09:34, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Just listened to a podcast with neutrals and Villa fans. A Lot of valid points and similar to what I have intimated.

He/we took a huge gamble on players/wages over 2 years and failed, just as every fan would have wanted, in turn compounding financial implications - Fans "What a d*ckhead and sh*t business man, you think they would know how to run a club" (After promotion failure)

If he had come in and said "We are going to build slowly, reduce wages, and make a big push when we are self sustainable" FANS - "What a d*ckhead, should be spending 899 million of his 900 million pound fortune on us, Aston Villa deserve success now"

Again, quick to turn on the people who have sacrificed a sh*t load to try and get the club back where it wants to be, but not the clowns who were tasked with the mission, and pretty much given better resources than 90 percent of the clubs in the League.

Others keep saying "He is a liar, he's said he can't get money out of China" - When did he say this? (He didn't)

If the reports of him having had to invest 4 - 5 million per season just to cover losses, I genuinely can't see how people cannot get the math.

The very same people who call press talk bollox lap it up when it goes along with their feelings or subconscious agenda.

I know for a 100% fact he said he couldn't get cash out of China, sadly I can't show you this (I have it in black and white) if you will maybe choose to believe me , that would be great, but I get that's not how it works...

[AvfcRigo82]

8 minutes ago, TheEgo said:

I know for a 100% fact he said he couldn't get cash out of China, sadly I can't show you this (I have it in black and white) if you will maybe choose to believe me , that would be great, but I get that's not how it works...

It is all bizarre really.

Laughable that last week a rare vase was sold at a Sowerby's auction house in Paris for £14.3m.

The winning buyer was from the far east too. I wonder how he's going to pay for that if these rules are so stringent on cash leaving the continent/country.

 

[TheEgo]

28 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

It is all bizarre really.

Laughable that last week a rare vase was sold at a Sowerby's auction house in Paris for £14.3m.

The winning buyer was from the far east too. I wonder how he's going to pay for that if these rules are so stringent on cash leaving the continent/country.

 

There WERE stringent rules for a time, but they were relaxed around November/Dec last year. It's not a valid excuse now. I don'y think Xia is broke, but actual cash has gone. He isn't really actually our owner if you follow the trail (which is hard to do) THAT is what worries me more than the current plight. I hate not knowing who actually owns us and those of us who are worried have a good to be (if you're not, then fair enough, but at least go and do some research/or not) Xia's mystery 'partners' those that own the majority of the shares in the companies that own us, should be a concern for ALL fans despite the conjecture and speculation. 

1. We need to know who owns us

2. What specifically Xia is doing to stabilize our  finances and club

He has no actual cash. So any money at the moment is DEBT.

If you were told before the season (or 2 seasons ago) we can go for broke and try to get promoted in two years, HOWEVER the money will be gone OR we can slowly build and use a sustainable model, it will take a few years, but the club won't be put at risk. I refuse to believe any fan wold have chose the former. We weren't given a choice and it is solely down to Xia and Wyness. We would have moaned for sure, but we would never want the club's future played with. The least to blame in all this is the fans. 

[VillaJ100]

So it seems Tony is just the front man for some unknown Chinese investors?