paul1984 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, jacketspuds said: Who knows what is and isnt true apart from Xia and a few others? Well you are right if you are talking about the exact situation but to know the basics anyone can find that out by looking at last years accounts then looking at what we as a club have done this year to get near the real figures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, paul1984 said: I think a lot of people perceived to be defending him are just not jumping on the band wagon of believing what they read in the paper when a lot of it is demonstrably not true. What is demonstrably true is we were so badly prepared for the scenario of losing the playoff final that we struggled to pay a regular tax bill. Also the the business was so dysfunctional that the owner suspended the CEO and now we don’t have one. There’s also an awful lot we don’t know about his business dealings and how come he suddenly seems to have no available cash. I’m not sure articulating that is “jumping on the bandwagon” as you so patronisingly put it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacketspuds Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, paul1984 said: Well you are right if you are talking about the exact situation but to know the basics anyone can find that out by looking at last years accounts then looking at what we as a club have done this year to get near the real figures. But that's it. Just the basics that anyone can get hold of. Admittedly the tabloids should be able to get this info, especially as we have so many accountants in our fan base, but the real detail is something that only a few know. Who thought we'd be having to arrange a plan with HMRC to catch up on missed payments. I certainly didn't. Might have been made out to be more than it is but we are still in a very severe position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 8 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I'd leave the "being realistic" down to the club. Sadly it seems we can't leave that to the club. They've utterly failed to 'be realistic' all season; why should we trust them to start now? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I don’t want to take this off topic but you’ve mentioned Trump quite a few times. His supporters generally don’t have faith in Trump because they like him. It’s because of his policies. Literally the opposite of the truth. It's a personality cult. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, paul1984 said: I expect them if they are worried about the clubs finance to get the basics of it from last years accounts and do some simple guess work on this years..... Its severe as we have the drop in parachute payments and were losing some money already....... that's it. Forgive me if I am wrong but :- We have lost parachute payments We massively increased the wage bill (over and above last years accounts) We have been recording losses for many years now We failed to make a due payment to HMRC Have suspended our CEO The press have (quite reasonably) assumed and reported there is a financial crisis at Villa - Are you saying you think the press are exaggerating ? - or over reporting . Now granted there will be some stuff (as always) reported which isn't true. But I think the stories in the press are pretty close to the mark on this one - much as I wish they weren't 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted June 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 9, 2018 4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: This, I said previously, if he had said, "the club has been hemorrhaging money so we are going to have to be sustainable and prudent for a couple of seasons to balance the books" to prevent an event if we failed promotion. People equally would have lost their sh*t. Probably, but then again we're just random idiots on the internet (the signature is relevant here). We don't have access to the accounts as they currently stand, or a more detailed understanding of the club's financial position. He does have this information, and he's failed to use it sensibly, placing the very existence of the club at risk. So frankly, 'but we might have moaned if he didn't spend so much' doesn't cut much mustard as an excuse for me. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 5 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said: Not a chance, there is a lot more prudence in the way both clubs were/are run. When Middlesbrough were relegated only Hull, Burnley and Bournemouth had lower wage bills and I can't imagine it has escalated since. Not much deadwood in their squad either. Since Xia has taken over the wage bill has dropped from 80-90m to 45-50m so the wage bill hasnt escalated here either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Villa Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Probably, but then again we're just random idiots on the internet (the signature is relevant here). We don't have access to the accounts as they currently stand, or a more detailed understanding of the club's financial position. He does have this information, and he's failed to use it sensibly, placing the very existence of the club at risk. So frankly, 'but we might have moaned if he didn't spend so much' doesn't cut much mustard as an excuse for me. To be fair to us all, (refering to @HanoiVillansignature) we're a caring bunch of mongs, spouting concerned bollocks, somewhat informed, mostly speculative but all aiming for the same thing - our Villa back, preferably competitive and debt free. Heaven help anyone who takes the piss, is bent, a fraud, incompetent or a bluenose (who collectively are all of the aforementioned and worse) - none will last long if they jeopardise the future of our club. Edited June 9, 2018 by Darth Villa Typo fix 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 5 hours ago, DCJonah said: I don't think it does. The cash flow issues seem to be all from him. It highlights the new mess he created on top of what he inherited. This just simply isnt true. Lerners final year saw the club make losses of over 80m. Xia's first year the club llst 15m and forecasts suggest the club is set to make a similar loss for his second. Tells me he has done a great job in reducing the crap he was left whilst also pushing to get us nearly promoted. As wages are our biggest outlay, and as i have previously posted, players leaving this year (and if i recall correctly, including loans, there are more than 10 of them leaving) will reduce the annual wage bill by 17m. With the contracts set to expire at the end of the 18/19 season set to reduce that by a further 15m. And thats assuimg we dont sell any of them in the mean time. Point being out expediture is going to be dropping massively and will dramatically improve our position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 4 hours ago, DCJonah said: Articles and opinions by people with knowledge of chinese business. The fact we missed the tax payment and the fact we cashed in early on transfer fees when we knew ffp was an issue for this year. Its looking more likely that his wealth and the things he said when he arrived are not true. What evidence do you have to suggest he is being completely honest? Or is it like trump again, just assume the cult leader is great and the world is against him. #MVGA your first point - articles and opinions are not proof nor are they facts. Opinions by definition are not facts. We also do not know that the missed tax payment had anything to do with Xia, nor do we know that he knew about the early cashing of transfer revenue. This could be the reason Wyness was suspended so we cannot use this against Xia until we know the facts as they are not currently known. What has come to light to say he isn't a wealthy man? nothing that i have seen. We know that his business in China have lost hundreds of millions over the last 18 months but by no means are they in danger of going out of business and indeed he is still listed among the top 500 wealthiest in China. Whilst he may not have liquid cash, he certainly has a significant amount of assets, and is far from not being wealthy. I'd love to hear what he has said since his arrival that isn't true. He has been over optimistic about the scale of his plans for sure, but i dont believe his desire for that to happen isnt there so that still doesn't make it untrue. As for your last point - i'm afraid the justice system reads 'innocent until proven guilty' so the burden of proof is on you to prove dishonesty rather than the other way around. The truth being that we dont know enough to suggest he is either honest or dishonest, but as you are the one casting aspersions, you carry the burden of proof - and nothing you have mention bears any fruit to suggest he is anything other than overly excitable and possibly naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 5 hours ago, DCJonah said: This is what the co founder of millenium films said about the deal that ended up not happening. "They paid us $20 million and the deal is now dead. As far as we know, it’s dead. The deal was for a little over $200 million for 100% of the company. They gave us $20 million on the come and they were supposed to pay us and they gave us many reasons why they couldn’t. It was this, it was that. It’s very simple. It’s dead." seems very similar in talking about having all this money and not coming through. Difference is he managed to get this club, probably due to the desperation of lerner and relegation. so your evidence of Xia lying is a quote from a disgruntled member of another company he was attempting to buy? At best this is hearsay and not proof or evidence of anything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said: As for your last point - i'm afraid the justice system reads 'innocent until proven guilty' so the burden of proof is on you to prove dishonesty rather than the other way around. The truth being that we dont know enough to suggest he is either honest or dishonest, but as you are the one casting aspersions, you carry the burden of proof - and nothing you have mention bears any fruit to suggest he is anything other than overly excitable and possibly naive. This is more than a bit silly. @DCJonah isn't setting himself up as a parallel justice system, he's raising entirely legitimate concerns that have been made in similar terms by published writers (see the Dreyer piece on a previous page). Nobody on the forum has to set themselves up as a private investigation agency to voice concerns. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul1984 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, hippo said: Forgive me if I am wrong but :- We have lost parachute payments We massively increased the wage bill (over and above last years accounts) We have been recording losses for many years now We failed to make a due payment to HMRC Have suspended our CEO The press have (quite reasonably) assumed and reported there is a financial crisis at Villa - Are you saying you think the press are exaggerating ? - or over reporting . Now granted there will be some stuff (as always) reported which isn't true. But I think the stories in the press are pretty close to the mark on this one - much as I wish they weren't I find it's best to reply to one persons post rather than make the same point to multiple replies so I am replying to this one as its more detailed. Yes we have lost parachute payments this season they were 8 million less than they were the year before and next season they are 18 million less than this season so its 41m to 33m to 15m Last season we spent 84.6m on transfers and recouped 45.9m so a net spend of 38.7m We lost according to the accounts was 14.5m. This means we only recorded a net loss of 14.5m even though we had a net spend of 38.7m, that's a 24.2m difference So these are the known facts.... So what changed since then? We spent 2.8m on players and recouped 17.8m. so a net gain of 15m (this doesn't include Jordan Amavi's permanent transfer fee which will be made later on) We know the parachute payments went down 8m from 41 to 33m We also know we brought 5 loan players in and JT What we don't know is how much in wages we contributed towards the loan players or exactly what JT was paid but it is thought to be 3.5m for the year. Now its THOUGHT that we could have paid those loan players & JT 15m in wages but its unknown but for assumption lets assume its so. Lets also assume all the players that left over that summer (Amavi, Veretout, Sanchez etc) got paid nothing the year before to make this more simple. So we have a net gain 15m in player sales but we spent that on wages for JT and the loan players so thats now neutral and we are left with an 8m loss in parachute payments to deal with. How ever lets throw something else in the mix that 24.2m difference the year before... whats that down to? does it count for this year? how much was saved in wages of those players we sold this year? Then there is the couple of million for the rights to bodymoor. I know this is fag packet maths but it hardly looks cataclysmic. Next year we lose 18m in parachute money but we also lost 18m in wages of JT, loan players and Gabby. people in the press have been saying Xia has been propping us up with 5m per month but we only lost 14.5m last year and he wouldn't be allowed to do that due to FFP Now I could be wrong but it doesnt seem like I am and I'm really not worried. Edited June 9, 2018 by paul1984 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 32 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said: This just simply isnt true. Lerners final year saw the club make losses of over 80m. Xia's first year the club llst 15m and forecasts suggest the club is set to make a similar loss for his second. Tells me he has done a great job in reducing the crap he was left whilst also pushing to get us nearly promoted. As wages are our biggest outlay, and as i have previously posted, players leaving this year (and if i recall correctly, including loans, there are more than 10 of them leaving) will reduce the annual wage bill by 17m. With the contracts set to expire at the end of the 18/19 season set to reduce that by a further 15m. And thats assuimg we dont sell any of them in the mean time. Point being out expediture is going to be dropping massively and will dramatically improve our position. That sounds like the same conjecture we've had on here every year since we first worried about the operating costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: This is more than a bit silly. @DCJonah isn't setting himself up as a parallel justice system, he's raising entirely legitimate concerns that have been made in similar terms by published writers (see the Dreyer piece on a previous page). Nobody on the forum has to set themselves up as a private investigation agency to voice concerns. i havent said his concerns arent legitimate nor have i said what has been published isnt legitimate. What i have said is that to call someone dishonest and a liar without any proof to back it up is setting yourself up for a fall. I dont have any evidence to say Xia is honest and truth telling, but i am not slandering him. Events have happened that are bad for the club but we as yet do not know who is culpable for what. Based on what we do know, i'd prefer Xia sold the club to someone else, but i am not going to accuse him of being something that i cannot be sure he is because i dont like whats happening to the club. the 'facts' are that we dont know who is responsible for the events of the last few days and until we do i am not going to judge and/or slander anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 27 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said: indeed he is still listed among the top 500 wealthiest in China Is he? According to our Beijing correspondent: Quote In 2018, he fell off from the 'top 500 rich people list in China' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: That sounds like the same conjecture we've had on here every year since we first worried about the operating costs. you can call it conjecture if you want, but should you be so inclined to actually look at the clubs published accounts (obviously excluding this current season as it isnt published yet) you will find its actually factual and not conjecture. Published businesss accounts in so far as possible are as far from conjecture as you can really get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted June 9, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Is he? According to our Beijing correspondent: Well - i take it back - he was listed the last time i checked 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said: you can call it conjecture if you want, but should you be so inclined to actually look at the clubs published accounts (obviously excluding this current season as it isnt published yet) you will find its actually factual and not conjecture. Published businesss accounts in so far as possible are as far from conjecture as you can really get. 47 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said: , players leaving this year (and if i recall correctly, including loans, there are more than 10 of them leaving) will reduce the annual wage bill by 17m. With the contracts set to expire at the end of the 18/19 season set to reduce that by a further 15m. And thats assuimg we dont sell any of them in the mean time. Point being out expediture is going to be dropping massively and will dramatically improve our position. That's conjecture. I've 'been so inclined to actually look at the accounts'. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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