mjmooney Posted August 16, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 16, 2017 I seem to recall that it was Norwich away that signalled curtains for Alex McLeish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: Genuine question. That's what you think now, based on the results and preformances, but what did you think at the the time? Look at all the players signed since Xia took over. Did you think the recruitment was a shambles at the time? Or like most fans, were you pretty excited by the players we signed? We didn't sign a load of nobodies or players from China, we went out and got exactly what pretty much everybody thought we needed. Quality players, with good track records either in this division or above. The 'characters' looked to be the right type too. I agree it's not working, but you can only make the best decision you can at the time, knowing those decisions will ultimately be judged with hindsight for good or bad. RDM was a bit left field, but Bruce wasn't a shambles of an appointment, on paper it looked a sensible choice, given his record and our goal. Wyness wasn't a shambles of an appointment, he was an experienced CEO in the football world, who appeared to do as decent job at Everton. We can't just criticise everything because it hasn't worked out, we have to apply a bit of balance and acknowledge the intention behind decisions at the time too. At the time i thought he was a short term appointment by the club for us to try and get in the top six. He failed and in the process we produced some of the worst football I've ever seen at VP i thought McLeish was better i was calling for him to be sacked at the end of the season but many were harping on about him just needing a preseason. Instead of being sacked the very people that Dr Xia employed to advise him thought he was the right man for the job and ignored everything which went on the pitch, wasted more money on bringing in players which the manager does not have a clue how to utilize but no problem guys he's got teams promoted before so everything will be rosy. I also mentioned before Bruce's appointment that If the plan was to rebuild over a long period of time like it's looking now (I think we will be down here for 5 years plus) that we should have just gone for a more progressive manager with a footballing philosophy to get us out of this division over the long term and not a quick fix. No matter how you dress it up the parallels between Dr Xia and Lerner are there. Spent money but employed the wrong people who deserve to be sacked based on the poor advise they have given him. Pashun and hardwork is not enough to get out of this division im afraid. Edited August 16, 2017 by AshVilla 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 It's been a shambles the whole way through. RDM was allowed to go wild in the transfer market with nobody stopping to notice he needed to do much more to strengthen the midfield. He also went out and bought players of either questionable attitude (McCormack) or of poor quality (Elphick, Tish and Gollini). Now Bruce has been given a stab at it and there's a HUGE disconnect between who he's bought and the style of football we are playing. Who is overseeing this!? Part of me thinks it's all Bruce, but on the other hand I suspect some of these players have been bought for him. If it's the former then why isn't any of the so called 'football men' working with him to ensure he's purchasing players to fit a specific system. If it is the latter, and the 'football men" are having an input, then why are we buying players so unsuited to the manager's playing style; the manager THEY decided was the best man for the job. It is an absolute Lerner-esque **** shambles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante_Lockhart Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 When was the last time Tony was off Twitter for nearly a week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 minute ago, AshVilla said: At the time i thought he was a short term appointment by the club for us to try and get in the top six. He failed and in the process we produced some of the worst football I've ever seen at VP i thought McLeish was better i was calling for him to be sacked at the end of the season but many were harping on about him just needing a preseason including Wyness and Round. Instead of being sacked the very people that Dr Xia employed to advise him thought he was the right man for the job and ignored everything which went on the pitch wasted more money on bringing in players which the manager does not have a clue how to get the best out of but no problem guys he's got teams promoted before so everything will be rosy. I also mentioned before Bruce's appointment that If the plan was to rebuild over a long period of time like it's looking now (I think we will be down here for 5 years plus) that we should have just gone for a more progressive manager with a footballing philosophy to get us out of this division over the long term and not a quick fix. No matter how you dress it up the parallels between Dr Xia and Lerner are there. Spent money but employed the wrong people who deserve to be sacked based on the poor advise they have given him. Pashun and hardwork is not enough to get out of this division im afraid. I did ask what you thought of the players recruited, given one thing you said was the 'recruitment was a shambles'. Again, did you think the players we signed were 'a shambles' at the time? The points you make are not wrong, all I am trying to say is, you are basing them totally on hindsight and not really acknowledging the rationale behind them at the time? Fair enough, you thought Bruce was a short term fix to get into the top 6, but that's kind of my point, you can see why we did it and it wasn't 'wrong' at the time, it just hasn't worked out? If we had finished in the top 6 and gone up, would it still have been wrong? You think we should have sacked him in the summer, they thought he deserved more time and more than one transfer window to get it right. Based on what's happened you were right, but it doesn't mean there weren't valid reasons for doing what we did and it certainly doesn't mean everybody should be sacked left right and centre. It's just a philosophy for me I suppose and I liken it to my own role at work. I have to make a lot of decisions, fortunately my track record and the company philopshy allows me to make those decisons without fearing the sack, if I get one or two wrong. If you foster a culture whereby any mistake or wrong choice is met with termination, your company will never be the best it can be. Of course you have to deliver more than you don't, but you have to assess things on balance otherwise you'll be hiring and firing all the bleeding time and as we've seen, that doesn't really get you anywhere either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 16 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said: It's been a shambles the whole way through. RDM was allowed to go wild in the transfer market with nobody stopping to notice he needed to do much more to strengthen the midfield. He also went out and bought players of either questionable attitude (McCormack) or of poor quality (Elphick, Tish and Gollini). Now Bruce has been given a stab at it and there's a HUGE disconnect between who he's bought and the style of football we are playing. Who is overseeing this!? Part of me thinks it's all Bruce, but on the other hand I suspect some of these players have been bought for him. If it's the former then why isn't any of the so called 'football men' working with him to ensure he's purchasing players to fit a specific system. If it is the latter, and the 'football men" are having an input, then why are we buying players so unsuited to the manager's playing style; the manager THEY decided was the best man for the job. It is an absolute Lerner-esque **** shambles. That is why we need a coach, this system works well for other clubs, and I think we have bought relatively well in terms of ability. You just need a competent coach who can work with what he is given. I wouldn't give Bruce or any British manager fortunes to bring in their own men ever again after what happened under Mcleish ( Given, Zog, Jenas, Hutton) and O'Neill (you name em) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said: He also went out and bought players of either questionable attitude (McCormack) or of poor quality (Elphick, Tish and Gollini). Apologies for the selective quoting Morley, I know you are making a wider point, but just on this. All four of those haven't worked out, totally agree. Just pop into the early pages of any of their respective player threads and tell me how many fans thought they were poor signings at the time based on attitude and quality? The Tommy one is the best example. Between pages 16-20 of his thread you will read things like 'signing of the season', 'what a player', 'just what we needed' and 'BOSS'. Now he's an absolute turd who most people wouldn't pick in their pub side. Were we right to sign a guy who was worshipped by the Bournemouth fans, respected by his fellow pros and manager (they even had a #thanksTommy in the go when he left) and had previously shown all the attributes of a player we needed, or were we wrong to sign him because it hasn't worked out? McCormack had scored 29, 19 and 21 goals in the three seasons before we signed him, attitude problem or not. Gollini and Tish were punts, but again I didn't see many complaining at the time? Edited August 16, 2017 by wazzap24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: Apologies for the selective quoting Morley, I know you are making a wider point, but just on this. All four of those haven't worked out, totally agree. Just pop into the early pages of any of their respective player threads and tell me how many fans thought they were poor signings at the time based on attitude and quality? The Tommy one is the best example. Between pages 16-20 of his thread you will read things like 'signing of he season', 'what a player', 'just what we needed' and 'BOSS'. Now he's an absolute turd who most people wouldn't pick in their pub side. Were we right to sign a guy who was worshipped by the Bournemouth fans, respected by his fellow pros and manager (they even had a #thanksTommy in the go when he left) and had previously shown all the attributes of a player we needed, or were we wrong to sign him because it hasn't worked out? McCormack had scored 29, 19 and 21 goals in the three seasons before we signed him, attitude problem or not. Gollini and Tish were punts, but again I didn't see many complaining at the time? The thing with those signings though is we judged them on what they'd done at their clubs before joining us - our managers have failed to get the best from them - on paper they looked decent signings but they all failed to deliver for villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, Eastie said: The thing with those signings though is we judged them on what they'd done at their clubs before joining us - our managers have failed to get the best from them - on paper they looked decent signings but they all failed to deliver for villa I agree, I just don't think people remember the first bit when things aren't going to plan. When it comes to the point that Xia is getting grief over this, I just feel we are chucking the baby out with the bath water. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: I agree, I just don't think people remember the first bit when things aren't going to plan. When it comes to the point that Xia is getting grief over this, I just feel we are chucking the baby out with the bath water. I agree it's hard to blame is for the failure of new signings - he has backed his managers with mine and that's all a manager can hope for - whilst I think RDM was a it choice I think wyness and Round recommended Bruce and at the time many of us were in favour. however it's clear to all that Bruce is not going to turn this around and therefore the sooner xia wields the axe the better for all concerned . Should Norwich turn us over the atmosphere could turn nasty and it would be best to let Bruce go now . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted August 16, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Dante_Lockhart said: When was the last time Tony was off Twitter for nearly a week? He even tweeted when he had his heart op. Clearly waiting for next game to see if there's any sign of improvement. He can't say something positive until there is something to be positive about. Equally can't say owt negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 So has there been any words or tweets or I don't know, white smoke rising from Bodymoor Heath today? Anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, wazzap24 said: I did ask what you thought of the players recruited, given one thing you said was the 'recruitment was a shambles'. Again, did you think the players we signed were 'a shambles' at the time? The points you make are not wrong, all I am trying to say is, you are basing them totally on hindsight and not really acknowledging the rationale behind them at the time? Fair enough, you thought Bruce was a short term fix to get into the top 6, but that's kind of my point, you can see why we did it and it wasn't 'wrong' at the time, it just hasn't worked out? If we had finished in the top 6 and gone up, would it still have been wrong? You think we should have sacked him in the summer, they thought he deserved more time and more than one transfer window to get it right. Based on what's happened you were right, but it doesn't mean there weren't valid reasons for doing what we did and it certainly doesn't mean everybody should be sacked left right and centre. It's just a philosophy for me I suppose and I liken it to my own role at work. I have to make a lot of decisions, fortunately my track record and the company philopshy allows me to make those decisons without fearing the sack, if I get one or two wrong. If you foster a culture whereby any mistake or wrong choice is met with termination, your company will never be the best it can be. Of course you have to deliver more than you don't, but you have to assess things on balance otherwise you'll be hiring and firing all the bleeding time and as we've seen, that doesn't really get you anywhere either. When i said recruitment being a shambles i was mostly pointing towards Hogan and other players that have completely been completely mismanaged by Bruce since we have signed them it was like we just bought the best players in the division and expected to walk it yes they looked good on paper and had great stats but we have been left with a bunch of players who are shadows of their former selves and ook completely lost, Hourihane a left footed attacking midfielder being played on the right for example. I thought McCormack was a decent signing at this level, he's been mismanaged the whole time he's been here and suffered off the field problems, he took extra time between the close of last season to get fit for preseason then gets the door closed in his face. I thought with Grealish going out injured meant that McCormack would get played in the number 10 role instead were loaning him out to other clubs. Turned out to be a terrible signing and waste of money. I thought Hogan was a decent signing at the time provided we play a system to get the best out of him, i even pointed out during his time at Brentford before we signed him that he thrives off service and unless Bruce made tactical changes or overhauled the way we play we would never see the best out of him. Another terrible signing so far and waste of money. Football is a results business, Bruce isn't getting us the results and he should be sacked. Given the repercussions the club is likely to face due to these two failed appointments positions at the top of the club should also be reviewed. Edited August 16, 2017 by AshVilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, AshVilla said: When i said recruitment being a shambles i was mostly pointing towards Hogan and other players that have completely been completely mismanaged by Bruce since we have signed them it was like we just bought the best players in the division and expected to walk it yes they looked good on paper and had great stats but we have been left with a bunch of players who are shadows of their former selves and ook completely lost, Hourihane a left footed attacking midfielder being played on the right for example. I thought McCormack was a decent signing at this level, he's been mismanaged the whole time he's been here and suffered off the field problems, he took extra time between the close of last season to get fit for preseason then gets the door closed in his face. I thought with Grealish going out injured meant that McCormack would get played in the number 10 role instead were loaning him out to other clubs. Turned out to be a terrible signing and waste of money. I thought Hogan was a decent signing at the time provided we play a system to get the best out of him, i even pointed out during his time at Brentford before we signed him that he thrives off service and unless Bruce made tactical changes or overhauled the way we play we would never see the best out of him. Another terrible signing so far and waste of money. Football is a results business, Bruce isn't getting us the results and he should be sacked. Given the repercussions the club is likely to face due to these two failed appointments positions at the top of the club should also be reviewed. Hairy muff, but all of that is a criticism of how Bruce has managed the team, it doesn't really relate back to Xia being like Lerner? Xia has spent money, appointed proper 'football people' to the board and took advice from those people regarding the manager. I'd then imagine he's trusted the manager to make the decisons on player ins and outs. Whether it's worked or not, that's EXACTLY what I want from the owner of my club. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 54 minutes ago, sne said: So has there been any words or tweets or I don't know, white smoke rising from Bodymoor Heath today? Anything? Closest thing to that, would be him "Liking" a tweet saying Bruce has been shit for 10 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) We all knew the silence would come when things turned bad. Nobody expected it to happen so quickly. Edit: he has tweeted something lol Edited August 16, 2017 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 He lives. Mentions a chapter in a book. Someone on twitter found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoughboroughLion Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Silence broken. Whats the book?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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