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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


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It's this kind of thing where a live TV debate would actually prove useful, probably more so than in the lead up to an election.  All the press coverage is about the personalities and the splits, too many questions are asked to the people involved about it, all the sound bites the news networks take away from them are about it.  I'd rather Cameron and Johnson (or whoever, though those two seem to be the key figures for both sides) just had a proper debate about it with questions solely about what it means.

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On 13/03/2016 at 11:31, tonyh29 said:

Apparently Sturgeon has called for another independence vote in the summer ?

i had to chuckle at the hypocrisy of her line about being ruled by Tories whilst their block vote last week helped defeat a policy that had zero bearing on Scotchland 

since we are doing personality votes I hope we all vote leave just so that we get rid of Salmond and Sturgeon who would almost certainly want to stay within the United States of Europe 

She was interviewed by Andrew Neil at the weekend about independence and how they would manage their current deficit now oil revenues have dried up.No real answers and I can't help thinking they are pushing for another referendum before things get worse.

 

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42 minutes ago, Nabby said:

She was interviewed by Andrew Neil at the weekend about independence and how they would manage their current deficit now oil revenues have dried up.No real answers and I can't help thinking they are pushing for another referendum before things get worse.

 

They want a referendum when they have a chance of winning it, and no sooner. 

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There is a tiny chance of the SNP winning a referendum on independence anytime soon. They did really really well last time, negotiating and cajoling all manner of concessions out of Westminster - even as the losers of the referendum.

If it seriously comes up as a subject again, they'll win yet more control and cash over from Westminster. The little SNP, stupid Salmond, irritating little Sturgeon, funny little Scotland. They will get all manner of even more enhanced trinkets for Scotland if there is a serious whisper of another referendum.

Luckily, we have these top negotiators apparently, that we are due to unleash on the EU when we separate. These guys are going to get us a really good, really favourable deal, really quickly. 

Shame these ace negotiators weren't around for the Scottish referendum.....

My point is, look how poorly the government did when sat across a table from the Scottish vote yes campaign. Do we imagine EU negotiation will be more or less tricky than that?

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7 minutes ago, Dante_Lockhart said:

Scotland want independence yet have no problem with voting against England having longer opening hours on a Sunday, when they already have it themselves.

if only the Westminster parliament and civil servants weren't so shit at negotiating sensible deals this could have been prevented

it's not the fault of the SNP that the system set up by others doesn't stop them dicking about in the affairs of others

they are not the cause of the problem, they are the effect

I'm sure the vote leave negotiators and legal bods will be far better at that sort of thing.

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I know that social media is an untrustworthy guide (we tend to filter all but the views we agree with), but a glance at the Corbyn FB pages would suggest a big vote for Brexit. Post after post says "I totally support JC - but NOT on this issue". The reasons vary between opposition to immigration to opposition to Eurocapitalism, but the numbers are significant.

I think we are going to leave. 

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16 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I know that social media is an untrustworthy guide (we tend to filter all but the views we agree with), but a glance at the Corbyn FB pages would suggest a big vote for Brexit. Post after post says "I totally support JC - but NOT on this issue". The reasons vary between opposition to immigration to opposition to Eurocapitalism, but the numbers are significant.

I think we are going to leave. 

I know opinion polling had a bad year in the UK last year, but there has been a slight move towards REMAIN recently. If I had to guess, I'd put probabilities at something like REMAIN 55-60%, LEAVE 40-45%. That's a prediction of the chance of each side winning, not the margin in the actual vote, which will be much tighter. It wouldn't be very surprising at all if LEAVE won.

I wouldn't assume that people posting on Corbyn's Facebook are much of a sample of anything. They're probably the least likely group to actually go out and vote in the UK.

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I have friends in manufacturing in the Jewelry Quarter.  Recently half of their factory were made redundant.  Shame.

They are all voting leave.

My job (energy analyst) is basically manufactured by E.U law/legislation, most of the energy sector will vote stay.

I think it'll be much closer than a lot of people think.

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34 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I wouldn't assume that people posting on Corbyn's Facebook are much of a sample of anything. They're probably the least likely group to actually go out and vote in the UK.

Why do you think that? I would say the exact opposite. I think he has mobilised a lot of previously apathetic/disillusioned people. And they WILL vote. But on this issue, possibly not with him.

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I think it'll be close but the uncertainty of what follows a leave vote will win the day. However as it isn't a general election & each vote effectively matters, it may bring out plenty of people who otherwise wouldn't vote, which makes it a bit harder to predict. I can see a significant anti-establishment vote causing a lot of nervousness in Westminster.

 

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43 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Why do you think that? I would say the exact opposite. I think he has mobilised a lot of previously apathetic/disillusioned people. And they WILL vote. But on this issue, possibly not with him.

I'm assuming they're mostly young people, and young people have a notoriously terrible record for turning out at elections. If they're older I may be wrong.

I do agree with you that Corbyn has mobilized a lot of previously apathetic people though, it's just that with young voters he's starting from an extremely low starting point.

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What angered me recently, I watched Alan Carr, its my own fault but the cast of raised by wolves were on it and I find them funny, but at the start he asked his audience who cared about the eu, and it made me think, look this is a massively important vote, dont play it down, play it up, it is important people engage with this. Then I had a nother glass of wine and chuckled at at the cast of raised by wolves.

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2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

I know that social media is an untrustworthy guide (we tend to filter all but the views we agree with), but a glance at the Corbyn FB pages would suggest a big vote for Brexit. Post after post says "I totally support JC - but NOT on this issue". The reasons vary between opposition to immigration to opposition to Eurocapitalism, but the numbers are significant.

I think we are going to leave. 

This is just an anecdotal thing, but of the people I've talked to in the flesh about the referendum, all the ones who've said "out" are absolutely cast iron insistent, "I can't wait to vote leave" and all the others are "meh, probably vote stay, most likely, whatever" - So the leave supporters I've talked to are much more fervent about it, and perhaps therefore much more likely to put facebooks into the Jeremy Corbyn internet writery thing to say as much.

But you're the second person today who's said they reckon we're going to leave. kind of spooky.

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I was amazed the Sun went so early with that Queen cover. I'd have thought that would be ripe for use the day before the referendum.

But yes, we'll see some corking good stuff in the Mail and Sun these next few months. Be sure, if a brown person or a Frenchy, or a brown Frenchy rapes a goat, gets a council flat, bumps his car or drops litter anywhere in Hampshire, Berkshire or Surrey in the next 3 months, you are going to get a pull out special all about it. I believe The Express has already suggested the paint on Diana's forehead was from a stolen camel.

 

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17 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

It'll be interesting to see the press reaction when Obama pops over to weigh in.

 

He'll rightly be told to Foxtrot Oscar by all but the Guardian and Economist.

When the US is happy to have a court of non qualified judges in Guatemala overrule their Supreme Court, and have significant legislation drafted in secret by an Americas Council with members from Hounduras, Belize and El Salavador, with a Parliament in Panama... Maybe then he can offer some advice on the benefits of pooling national sovereignty.

Until then he'd be wise to keep his opinions to himself. It's as bad for Remain as being supported by Blair and Goldman Sachs. Big own goal if Cameron pushes this.

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37 minutes ago, Awol said:

He'll [Obama]... be told to Foxtrot Oscar by all but the Guardian and Economist.

The rest of the press howl at anything or anyone who doesn't share their owners outlook on Yurp. And on the days they're not howling, they're making stuff up.

Of course, if he were to support the exit camp, then they'd be right up his chuff.

It's kind of tricky, when other country's leaders get involved in something like domestic politics. Sometimes it's informative to know what or how other nations think about EU exit, for example. And sometimes you wonder if they're actually speaking about what would be best for them, and sometimes you wonder if they're doing it as a favour for one side or the other, and sometimes you think "they don't actually understand the issue". But overall I like the idea of understanding what other people think, people of significant roles.

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