The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Xann said:

Now take us through how you lost the Tory thread?

Some big boys did it and then ran off, Sir, I mean the dog ate it....I had it when I was one the bus, I must have dropped it.

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

His message, I assume...

I'm not sure why you have returned again to this. Neither of us know the tweeter's message and it's neither necessary nor helpful to the discussion of what was around at the time to be distracted on to a discussion about it.

1 hour ago, peterms said:

What I'm saying is that Heath and others had a vision involving ever closer union, but that's not what I recall being the nature of the public discussion.  There was no clear view put forward about where we were going to end up in this sense of political and economic integration, though there was an understanding that we were entering a different type of relationship.  The 1972 Reith Lectures were titled "Europe: Journey to an unknown destination", which I think is a fair reflection.

 

1 hour ago, peterms said:

The main public debate took place in preparation for the 1975 referendum on continued membership, rather than at the time of entry.  The leading arguments were economic, though other things appeared as well.  A review of campaign literature here says

None of that seems to be out of step with my thoughts earlier.

Quote

The pamphlet issued by the government at the time, here, reflected the primacy of economic issues in the debate:
.

Quote

 

..On March 18 the Prime Minister was able to make this announcement:

'I believe that our renegotiation objectives have been substantially though not completely achieved.'

What were the main objectives to which Mr. Wilson referred? The most important were FOOD and MONEY and JOBS.

...

 

 

 

These were comments about the renegotiation of terms on which the UK would remain in the EC, weren't they, rather than comments indicating a limit to the scope or potential scope of the EC?

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by snowychap

[peterms]

20 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I'm not sure why you have returned again to this. Neither of us know the tweeter's message and it's neither necessary nor helpful to the discussion of what was around at the time to be distracted on to a discussion about it.

The thread you quoted is itself a discussion of what was around at the time, and the comments made in the thread by the OP and others are comments on and interpretations of the discussions that went on then.  I don't follow why you think it's some kind of distraction.

20 minutes ago, snowychap said:

These were comments about the renegotiation of terms on which the UK would remain in the EC, weren't they, rather than comments indicating a limit to the scope or potential scope of the EC?

Yes.  There wasn't nearly as much discussion of the future direction of the EU, as there was about the economic costs and benefits for us.  That's not surprising, since there was not one clear vision which was being presented for endorsement.  As Tickell said in the piece I quoted earlier, those most closely involved in the negotiations saw it as a direction of travel which would need to evolve inch by inch, with future governments determining how it should develop and what the limits should be.

[snowychap]

16 minutes ago, peterms said:

The thread you quoted is itself a discussion of what was around at the time, and the comments made in the thread by the OP and others are comments on and interpretations of the discussions that went on then.  I don't follow why you think it's some kind of distraction.

I've just gone back and it may not have been clear. The content that I was referring to was not comments being made by people on twitter but rather the material that was from the time, e.g. the Heath clip, the various newspaper clippings, &c.

16 minutes ago, peterms said:

Yes.

Excellent. Glad to have you confirm it.

Edited August 24, 2018 by snowychap
Wording

[LondonLax]

5 hours ago, hippo said:

I think the EU has won the phoney war 

The initial 'give us what we want or we will walk away with no deal'  looks to be on thin ice. Always likely, as though the EU will miss our financial input - they aren't prepared to radically alter what they do to get the UK onside.

In fact looking back on the whole thing, I don't see we have gained much from the negotiations - the EU seemed to have stuck to their guns and have had to shift.

None of the above is a dig at TM or the Tories - I don't really believe there was a good deal to be had - the odds were always in the EU'S favour.

That point was made by a lot of people before this whole negotiation started. 

The idea that ‘that need us more than we need them’ was always hubris. 

[StefanAVFC]

Not a perfect analogy by any means but made me laugh

 

[chrisp65]

9 hours ago, hippo said:

I think the EU has won the phoney war 

The initial 'give us what we want or we will walk away with no deal'  looks to be on thin ice. Always likely, as though the EU will miss our financial input - they aren't prepared to radically alter what they do to get the UK onside.

In fact looking back on the whole thing, I don't see we have gained much from the negotiations - the EU seemed to have stuck to their guns and have had to shift.

None of the above is a dig at TM or the Tories - I don't really believe there was a good deal to be had - the odds were always in the EU'S favour.

I've asked my local golf club if I can be like a member, but not pay and not abide by any rules I don't fancy.

Now, they appear to be worried that if I don't pay and I don't wear stupid trousers, others currently paying subs and wearing pantaloons will want the same deal as me.

I expect eventually they'll cave in and give me what I want.

[Chindie]

Cough

Support for this is either born of ignorance, idiocy, extreme ideology, or profiteering.

[bickster]

Quote

One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected.

Do you wonder who wrote that?

[blandy]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Do you wonder who wrote that?

I like the linked (from your Leave campaign link quote)

Quote

We are, therefore, in a bizarre no mans land where none of the power brokers, in so much as anybody is able to wield authority, is working on real world answers. Mrs May is caught up in her Chequers delusion, the Tory right is obsessed with "WTO tariffs", Raab is looking for a "no deal" deal, and the remoanoids are busy campaigning for a referendum that isn't going to happen. The only person working on a final solution is Jeremy Corbyn, and it's not related to Brexit.

[ml1dch]

5 hours ago, bickster said:

Do you wonder who wrote that?

Although he /they have said that all along, and still say it now.

[chrisp65]

[StefanAVFC]

Self-serving word removed

Yeah, start the troubles up again JRM, for your extreme ideology. 

[VILLAMARV]

50 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Self-serving word removed

Yeah, start the troubles up again JRM, for your extreme ideology. 

If it's like it was "during the troubles" I assume he means stopping all us proles and subjecting us to time wasting nonsense while letting the secret service ops through and diplomatic immunity types to ferry all the weapons n orders n that.

 

 

 

 

Alledgedly I suppose. If I must.

[NurembergVillan]

 

[HanoiVillan]

I know it's not really meant to be taken seriously, but that really isn't much of a comparison is it? Obviously it's easy to change a decision when only person invested in it. Brexit has 17 million people invested in it. 

[VILLAMARV]

Lovely piece about children attempting suicide -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45271194

Quote

Children 'attempting suicide' at Greek refugee camp

At Moria camp on the Greek island of Lesbos, there is deadly violence, overcrowding, appalling sanitary conditions and now a charity says children as young as 10 are attempting suicide. The Victoria Derbyshire programme has been given rare access inside.

"We are always ready to escape, 24 hours a day we have our children ready," says Sara Khan, originally from Afghanistan. "The violence means our little ones don't get to sleep."

Sara explains that her family spend all day queuing for food at the camp and all night ready to run - in fear of the fights that break out constantly. Conditions are so appalling that charities have actually left in protest. The place smells of raw sewage, and there are around 70 people per toilet, according to medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF). Some people live in mobile cabins, but rammed in-between them all are tents and tarpaulin sheets - homes for those who cannot obtain any official living space. The camp is also now sprawling into surrounding countryside. One tent houses 17 people - four families under one canvas. There are currently more than 8,000 people crammed into Moria camp, which was supposed to house around 2,000. A mum describes faeces on the floor of the shelter that she lives in with her tiny 12-day-old baby.

The violence in the camp is extreme. In May, hundreds of Kurdish people fled because of a huge battle largely between Arab and Kurdish men. Ali, who has now left the camp, says when he got to Moria with his family

"we found that there was already existing sectarianism and racism, whether it was between Sunnis and Shias, or Kurds, Arabs and Afghans". He adds that conflict between rebel groups in Syria has also landed inside the gates of the refugee camp.

"It's like the war in Syria and even uglier. We heard about rape cases in there, sexual harassment," he says.

On the day we are filming at Moria, yet another fight breaks out in the lunch queue for food. Two people are stabbed - others suffer panic attacks witnessing it. Nearby medical workers are put on standby at MSF. The charity initially left the island in protest at conditions, but has now opened a clinic just outside the gates because the need was so great. The children they are treating have skin conditions caused by the poor hygiene inside, and respiratory diseases from tear gas fired into the camp by police to quell fights. Mental health problems are rife. The workers say they have had to deal with children as young as 10 attempting suicide.

"It's something we're seeing constantly," says Luca Fontana, Lesbos co-ordinator for MSF, adding that they are reporting the conditions to the UN refugee agency UNHCR and Greece's ministry of health.

"Despite the fact that we push to move these children to Athens, as soon as possible, it's not happening. Those children are still here."

The camp opened in 2015 and was initially designed as a transit post for people to stay for a matter of days - but some have been here for years. It is controlled by the Greek government, and the overcrowding is because Greece is enforcing the EU's "containment" policy, keeping people on the island rather than transferring them to the Greek mainland. It is part of the EU-Turkey deal which aims to return thousands of refugees to Turkey, and it has been in force since March 2016. From then to July 2018, according to EU figures, 71,645 new refugees arrived in Greece by sea and only 2,224 have been returned to Turkey. George Matthaiou, a Greek government press representative on Moria, concedes conditions are terrible, but blames the EU rather than Greece.

"We don't have the money. You know the situation of Greece, economically," he says. "I want to help but I can do nothing, because the European Union closed the borders."

Back at the MSF tent, Luca Fontana, who has worked all over the world in conflict zones, says the camp is the worst place he has seen in his life. He worked during the Ebola outbreaks in West Africa but says,

"I've never seen the level of suffering we are witnessing here every day". "Even those affected by Ebola still have the hope to survive or they have the support of their family, their society, their village, their relatives." "Here, the hope is taken away by the system."

This is real. And what our taxes pay for. I say again, Where is the humanity?

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

Things look like they are slightly improving with better noise from the EU on a deal.

There is much less talk of a no-deal which has to be a good thing ?

[ml1dch]

12 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Things look like they are slightly improving with better noise from the EU on a deal.

Nothing has changed. Barnier has said that the UK will get the deepest, most comprehensive arrangement that the UK's self-imposed red lines will allow.

Which is what they've said from the very beginning.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

7 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Nothing has changed. Barnier has said that the UK will get the deepest, most comprehensive arrangement that the UK's self-imposed red lines will allow.

Which is what they've said from the very beginning.

OK I will leave it alone.