The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

21 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I agree if it was the Mail or something , but you've linked to an article on the LSE and Political Science , I doubt you are going to get Dave the builder from Chatham offering his views   , so I think you can cut them a bit of slack in this instance  

I had a quick look. It's better than the usual standard but there's still some of the maddening stuff.

The couple of posts you raise I don't think particularly break the argument. They're nits to pick. Norway isn't without influence and to say it is a simplification, but the point is that Britain sits at the table in the gang, we do better in that position that we do outside it. Norway is so different to us the deal may be better for them, in their view, to stay as they are, despite what Exit argues is a bad thing for Britain - the need to be beholden to European Union regulations etc.

The point on 'unanimous' is really, really nit picky. It's a simplification again and it's wrong, but it doesn't change the argument really again.

There are arguments in the comments against which have some traction but again I don't think overall it outweighs the Remain angle. But I am biased, of course

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Brexit will win and the key voters will not be those who don't like immigrants or whatever, but those who just want to vote against the establishment.

[MakemineVanilla]

7 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Brexit will win and the key voters will not be those who don't like immigrants or whatever, but those who just want to vote against the establishment.

The term they are using to explain the enthusiasm for both Trump and Brexit is 'push-back'.

People are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Edited June 3, 2016 by MakemineVanilla

[brommy]

Betting odds are still significantly in favour of remaining in the EU and yet of around 50 relatives, friends and work colleagues I have discussed it with in the last couple of months, only one has said they were considering a remain vote. That's either a statistical freak or voting intentions are strongly linked to geographical area and/or ethnicity and/or social standing that I don't encounter.

I wonder why the betting odds are so skewed towards remain, despite evenly split opinion polls. Are they assuming the majority of the current 'don't know' people will vote in large numbers for the status quo?

[tonyh29]

Mrs H is going to vote stay because it's better for Hungary  ... exactly why Emily Pankhurst should have stayed in the kitchen  ...

 

actually to be far , she watched the Sky prog last night and said Cameron had also convinced her

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

It's about democracy and accountability.

Any country which had the same system of government as the EU, would not be allowed to join the EU because it would not be considered democratic enough.

This is just silly. 

Of course organisations can belong to another organisation that is not like them. 

You have to be a football team to join the FA, but the FA isn't a football team. So what?

[HanoiVillan]

53 minutes ago, brommy said:

Betting odds are still significantly in favour of remaining in the EU and yet of around 50 relatives, friends and work colleagues I have discussed it with in the last couple of months, only one has said they were considering a remain vote. That's either a statistical freak or voting intentions are strongly linked to geographical area and/or ethnicity and/or social standing that I don't encounter.

I wonder why the betting odds are so skewed towards remain, despite evenly split opinion polls. Are they assuming the majority of the current 'don't know' people will vote in large numbers for the status quo?

Probably that to be honest. 

[AVFC_Hitz]

For the love of God, remain. What's wrong with you ****?

[blandy]

2 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

funny enough I watched the Sky thing last night and even where he failed with buzz words and rhetoric , Cameron did a fairly good job on convincing me to vote stay

That will probably last until tonight when Gove has his say though  .....

I didn't watch it, I watched the togger on ITV, but anyway... I'm finding the Cameron et al spiel making me less likely to vote to stay. I've gone from "about 80% likely to vote stay/20% to abstain to the other way round. If it goes on much longer I'll be joining the eff off lot!

Basically he's such a word removed, behaving like the bag of dingleberries he is, that there's no way I can vote for that twunt or anything he wants me to.

[tonyh29]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

I didn't watch it, I watched the togger on ITV, but anyway... I'm finding the Cameron et al spiel making me less likely to vote to stay. I've gone from "about 80% likely to vote stay/20% to abstain to the other way round. If it goes on much longer I'll be joining the eff off lot!

Basically he's such a word removed, behaving like the bag of dingleberries he is, that there's no way I can vote for that twunt or anything he wants me to.

you never fail to disappoint with your predictability

I really really hope Cameron decides to re-nationalise the railways before he leaves just so you have to squirm  

 

 

[tonyh29]

I think if I ever met Faisal Islam id bop him on his nose .... You ain't Paxman , Just shut the **** up and let the other guy speak 

[sharkyvilla]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I think if I ever met Faisal Islam id bop him on his nose .... You ain't Paxman , Just shut the **** up and let the other guy speak 

He is an odious clearing in the woods, if I was in the audience I'd be howling for him to shut up.

[djdabush]

Am I the only one who can't wait for this to be over and done with?  It brings out the very worst in people and the printed press has been particularly disgraceful. Both sides of the debate just seem to lie and manipulate in the hope of further their own political careers. It's project fear from both sides and it seems such a shame that a massively important decision like this has been hijacked by arseholes like Cameron and Johnson.

[MakemineVanilla]

On 6/3/2016 at 20:10, tonyh29 said:

I think if I ever met Faisal Islam id bop him on his nose .... You ain't Paxman , Just shut the **** up and let the other guy speak 

Faisal Islam was poached from Channel 4 News, whose house style is hectoring.

They seem to think that their viewers are not interested in any particular issue, they just want the presenters to get hysterical on their behalf.

The only good thing you can say about Faisal Islam is that Helia Ebrahimi took his place.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Whilst I sympathise with the Brexiter's, what they have to accept is that their decision, should it be successful, will inflict an enormous shock to the British economy, causing short term chaos and a very bad 'medium' term too. The (very) long term could well be fine, but all the talk of 'savings' as a result of being outside of the EU will be more than shaved off by the reduction in GDP. Unemployment will certainly rise and investment will absolutely plummet. 

Whilst the long term could be fine - the UK's terms with the rest of Europe will be damaged, and there's really no precedent out there for what the Brexiter's want. You can't have a Norway scenario as they have to accept free movement of labour etc, so it's very much uncharted territory. It will be a very long process to get all of the requisite trading agreements in place for a 'market' which accounts for almost half of the UK's trade.

The final issue I have is that whilst I really do not like EU, I do not want to have people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove having decision making power over this countries future so again, another reason not to back the Brexit campaign. 

[MakemineVanilla]

30 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Whilst I sympathise with the Brexiter's, what they have to accept is that their decision, should it be successful, will inflict an enormous shock to the British economy, causing short term chaos and a very bad 'medium' term too. The (very) long term could well be fine, but all the talk of 'savings' as a result of being outside of the EU will be more than shaved off by the reduction in GDP. Unemployment will certainly rise and investment will absolutely plummet. 

Whilst the long term could be fine - the UK's terms with the rest of Europe will be damaged, and there's really no precedent out there for what the Brexiter's want. You can't have a Norway scenario as they have to accept free movement of labour etc, so it's very much uncharted territory. It will be a very long process to get all of the requisite trading agreements in place for a 'market' which accounts for almost half of the UK's trade.

The final issue I have is that whilst I really do not like EU, I do not want to have people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove having decision making power over this countries future so again, another reason not to back the Brexit campaign. 

Membership of the EU does afford some protection against democratically elected governments which the EU President does not approve of.

Herr Juncker was threatening the Austrians with the powers he was given under Article 7 TEU if they elected a government he did not like.

Presumably this would apply as much in the case of a left-wing government as it would for a right-wing government not to Juncker's liking.

The Greek Prime Minister was forced out because he was too left-wing.

At present we can vote in who we like as long as the EU President approves. 

Having such a veto might be a good thing but it is not what you might call democratic.

[penguin]

I just can't see the subversion of national democracy by a bureaucratic entity as anything but a bad thing and a very slippery slope, the major sticking point for me.

[chrisp65]

27 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Membership of the EU does afford some protection against democratically elected governments which the EU President does not approve of.

 

24 minutes ago, penguin said:

I just can't see the subversion of national democracy by a bureaucratic entity as anything but a bad thing and a very slippery slope, the major sticking point for me.

I'm sure the 24% of the UK electorate that voted tory wholeheartedly agree with that.

As will all those we voted in to the House of Lords.

As will the next minister deciding to use a statutory instrument.

As will the tory advisers and aids neck deep in secretly pushing TTIP forward.

Playing the democracy card really doesn't work for either side, other than to get an easy cheer out of people looking for something to cheer. Which is something I've particularly noticed about both sides in TV and radio debates. It's like the whole thing is going to be decided on a clapometer. Just say anything to get a cheer from the hired hands we brought here on a bus. 

[MakemineVanilla]

15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I'm sure the 24% of the UK electorate that voted tory wholeheartedly agree with that.

As will all those we voted in to the House of Lords.

As will the next minister deciding to use a statutory instrument.

As will the tory advisers and aids neck deep in secretly pushing TTIP forward.

Playing the democracy card really doesn't work for either side, other than to get an easy cheer out of people looking for something to cheer. Which is something I've particularly noticed about both sides in TV and radio debates. It's like the whole thing is going to be decided on a clapometer. Just say anything to get a cheer from the hired hands we brought here on a bus. 

But by that argument you seem to be saying that there is not enough democracy at the moment and more would be worse.

[chrisp65]

No. I'm not saying more would be worse, not saying that by any stretch.

The more accountable people acting as checks and balances on other accountable people, the better.

What I don't like is one side moaning about the lack of democracy in the other side. People in glass houses, scheisters, snakeoil salesmen and con men, saying trust in me, the others aren't trustworthy.