Awol Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, blandy said: That's the preferred choice (not called as the worst case) stated by Michael Gove, leader of the out people. Which is basically saying stuff we buy is going to be between 2.5% and maybe 7% (for some items) more expensive, sorry 'bout that. Oh and our stuff will be more expensive for the foreigners, so we'll unfortunately sell rather less of it, so sadly jobs have to go. So yeah, inflation, job losses, but whahey! we're free. Isn't it great! What Michael Gove actually said: 'There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP. 'Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone’s interests.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 Lets vote for a pay drop and price increases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, tinker said: Lets vote for a pay drop and price increases. The unknown amounts of which may determine whether an out vote is worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, tinker said: Lets vote for a pay drop and price increases. EU referendum: Let’s hear it for a man who told the truth about a Brexit Stuart Rose [leader of Britain Stronger In Europe] was vilified for his ‘gaffe’ about wages rising in the event of Britain leaving the EU. He should have been applauded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 If people are unsure, Ask yourself… If we wasn't already members would you vote to join? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think a more pertinent question for anyone who is unsure is 'What do I know and understand about what the EU is, what it does and how it does it, and what that means to the UK?' followed by some time on the net reading from a variety of sources. Then ask whether the benefits of leaving outweigh the benefits of staying. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 Maybe the whole of Europe should be involved in a one off referendum which finally decides if were going to all become states of one nation or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, tinker said: Maybe the whole of Europe should be involved in a one off referendum which finally decides if were going to all become states of one nation or not. Why would that be a good idea, when almost nobody wants that? Maybe we could have a referendum on only eating broccoli or something at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 31, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, Kingman said: If people are unsure, Ask yourself… If we wasn't already members would you vote to join? It's a kind of unbalanced question, that. It seems at first glance to be simple and a black and white thing. But we used to be not in the EEC/EC/EU and were keen to join, then we joined, and it helped us a great deal as we changed from "the sick man of Europe" to be what the Gov't claim to be one of the strongest economies in Europe. So we have benefitted hugely from being in the EU in many ways (not all) for 40 odd years. We are where we are now, with all the good and bad because of the EU (in large part). Also, Countries that aren't in want to join, and have been wanting to join, and joining for ages. So those that are out are mostly keen to join. Some are not - Norway and Switzerland. Though they have a kind of partly involved status - for example paying the EU money (as we do) to get trade deals, or having free movement of people with the EU. So it's not quite as simple as ether "yeah" or "nah" (depending on whatever views people have). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 19 minutes ago, Kingman said: If people are unsure, Ask yourself… If we wasn't already members would you vote to join? I did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Why would that be a good idea, when almost nobody wants that? Maybe we could have a referendum on only eating broccoli or something at the same time. How do you know what people want? If we vote to stay in the June vote then we wont get another vote to stop a super state that's for sure. If we was one state then we would get to vote for the Leaders or Europe and have more of a say on European borders. Either way for me its time to decide if we want into a wider Europe or out of it and both for good or bad. No point in not saying how it really is and for the record atm I'm voting to stay in to keep the status quo. Decent job in manufacturing with a reasonable amount of disposable income and a currency that allows foreign travel to be on the affordable side. European Immigration has caused me no noticeable downside, work with a few and there good workers with a strong work ethic. NHS has took a kicking but I believe that has more to do with immigration from outside the EU and poor management from governments past and present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Just now, tinker said: How do you know what people want? If we vote to stay in the June vote then we wont get another vote to stop a super state that's for sure. If we was one state then we would get to vote for the Leaders or Europe and have more of a say on European borders. Either way for me its time to decide if we want into a wider Europe or out of it and both for good or bad. No point in not saying how it really is and for the record atm I'm voting to stay in to keep the status quo. Decent job in manufacturing with a reasonable amount of disposable income and a currency that allows foreign travel to be on the affordable side. European Immigration has caused me no noticeable downside, work with a few and there good workers with a strong work ethic. NHS has took a kicking but I believe that has more to do with immigration from outside the EU and poor management from governments past and present. Because I follow European politics. I read about it. In my free time. I know that's deeply sad, but there we go. The vast majority of countries in the EU have no interest in being part of a European superstate. Even in France and Germany, which are surely what you would point to for whatever mild enthusiasm for the idea you found, Euroskeptic parties are polling at 30% of the electorate. It's just a boogeyman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 31, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Awol said: What Michael Gove actually said: 'There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP. 'Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone’s interests.’ Thanks. There's no such entity as the European Free Trade Zone. I think he's using the term to describe a situation of multiple countries that have negotiated deals with the EU (from outside the EU). The process is detailed here http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149616.pdf#page=6 (links to pdf file). It's actually a lot more interesting that it sounds! and shows how there are many opportunities for delays, rejections, bureaucracy gone mad and all the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Because I follow European politics. I read about it. In my free time. I know that's deeply sad, but there we go. The vast majority of countries in the EU have no interest in being part of a European superstate. Even in France and Germany, which are surely what you would point to for whatever mild enthusiasm for the idea you found, Euroskeptic parties are polling at 30% of the electorate. It's just a boogeyman. There's also the issue of the actual logistics of bringing about a European Superstate. The EU can't turnaround one morning and say to the best part of 30 countries 'lol we're all one now , burn your flags and present your leaders for reallocation'. There'd be an enormous legal operation that would take decades have to happen, in dozens of different systems. And that's assuming no country in Europe would have in its constitution or legislature the requirement for referendum in the event of any major change in the country's status. And even then that's assuming that both the people of all of these states want it, and that their political leaders are prepared to do something politicians rarely do, which is give up power and status. I'm absolutely certain there are people who would love a United States of Europe. Unfortunately for them I'm also absolutely certain that there's so many other interests at play that doesn't want that that it'll never happen. It's a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Chindie said: There's also the issue of the actual logistics of bringing about a European Superstate. The EU can't turnaround one morning and say to the best part of 30 countries 'lol we're all one now , burn your flags and present your leaders for reallocation'. There'd be an enormous legal operation that would take decades have to happen, in dozens of different systems. And that's assuming no country in Europe would have in its constitution or legislature the requirement for referendum in the event of any major change in the country's status. And even then that's assuming that both the people of all of these states want it, and that their political leaders are prepared to do something politicians rarely do, which is give up power and status. I'm absolutely certain there are people who would love a United States of Europe. Unfortunately for them I'm also absolutely certain that there's so many other interests at play that doesn't want that that it'll never happen. It's a red herring. I'm sure there are too. There are people who favour all sorts of dumb stuff. It might even be as high as 5% of the population of the EU, though I doubt it. Greater integration, on the other hand, especially in the Eurozone, is something that is popular. However a] there's a huge gap between 'greater integration' and 'a United States of Europe', and b] we're not in the Eurozone anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, blandy said: It's a kind of unbalanced question, that. It seems at first glance to be simple and a black and white thing. But we used to be not in the EEC/EC/EU and were keen to join, then we joined, and it helped us a great deal as we changed from "the sick man of Europe" to be what the Gov't claim to be one of the strongest economies in Europe. So we have benefitted hugely from being in the EU in many ways (not all) for 40 odd years. We are where we are now, with all the good and bad because of the EU (in large part). Also, Countries that aren't in want to join, and have been wanting to join, and joining for ages. So those that are out are mostly keen to join. Some are not - Norway and Switzerland. Though they have a kind of partly involved status - for example paying the EU money (as we do) to get trade deals, or having free movement of people with the EU. So it's not quite as simple as ether "yeah" or "nah" (depending on whatever views people have). Do we think people of said countries would want to join given a referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairy In Boots Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 19 minutes ago, Kingman said: Do we think people of said countries would want to join given a referendum? Nope Norway rejected project fear awhile back in 1994, they would be doomed without the EU. It's also ranked the best country to live in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) Neither are particularly useful as examples to the UK in this debate, other than as a 'name' to attach to the type of deal we'd be signing up for in the eventuality of an exit. Neither is anything like the UK hence neither has a similar relationship with the EU as we do. Norway is a comparatively tiny country that has an economy based on very different lines to us (including using large fossil fuel reserves and other natural resources we don't have to the same extent). Etc etc. Leaving the EU proper isn't going to turn the UK into Norway. But we will have a relationship on similar lines, still paying into the pot, still accepting most of the requirements, but having no seat at the table. Similar to being a client of the EU rather than a director. The Swiss are such a bizarre country politically is unlikely you'd find a decent comparison anywhere to them. But certainly not the UK. Edited May 31, 2016 by Chindie Edit - significant correction on oil etc. Point remains the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said: Nope Norway rejected project fear awhile back in 1994, they would be doomed without the EU. It's also ranked the best country to live in the world. 25% VAT and transparent taxation. Quote Norway, the country where you can see everyone's tax returns Grauniad Is it the EU stopping us doing the same? When our own MPs evacuate their bowels at the thought of us knowing where their money is coming from? This thread is proper bonkers btw. Introducing fantasy to a political thread has certainly made for an interesting read. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Listening to a phone in on radio 2 this morning. Shouty blokes shouts down Labour MP saying 'STOP ALL IMMIGRATION UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED' Immigration will make us leave the EU and it's mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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