The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Genie]

Boris will be alright, once he’s out of this really inconvenient job he’ll release a book or 2 and sign some newspaper deals to bring in the serious money.

Absolutely destroyed the country, but will be bringing in a few million a year.

[Genie]

Looks like they realised the deal needed to be sweetened

Quote

Temporary visas are to be issued to 300 overseas fuel drivers "immediately", the government has announced.

Under the bespoke scheme, those foreign drivers will be able to work in the UK from now until the end of March.

Additionally, some 4,700 visas intended for foreign food haulage drivers will be extended by two months, lasting from late October to the end of February.

BBC

Still not sweet enough is my prediction.

[ml1dch]

22 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Yeah but most people would use their driving license as ID, like you would in the U.K.  It’s not very common to require a specific national ID card above all other forms of ID. 

Then again, that does bring us somewhat full circle to the original point about why someone might not bother getting a passport, does it not?

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

Then again, that does bring us somewhat full circle to the original point about why someone might not bother getting a passport, does it not?

Not really, you can’t travel on a driving license around the EU but you can use it for ID in your own country.

Hence, if someone with no travel ID decides they want to travel I would think the most logical thing to do would be to apply for a passport rather than a national ID card. 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Not really, you can’t travel on a driving license around the EU but you can use it for ID in your own country.

Hence, if someone with no travel ID decides they want to travel I would think the most logical thing to do would be to apply for a passport rather than a national ID card. 

Shall we hop on the Eurostar and go to London for the weekend darling?

Oh bollocks

[AVFC_Hitz]

36 minutes ago, bickster said:

Shall we hop on the Eurostar and go to London for the weekend darling?

Oh bollocks

We still went though, didn't we? Even after your discovery.

[LondonLax]

I guess the question we should discuss is if there is any evidence an ID card is more easily forged / less secure than a passport. 

We don’t allow people to travel to Australia on an ID card, you need a passport (and a pre-approved visa). I think that is the common policy for many nations. 

I haven’t looked at any data but presumably there is some sort of justification for that stance?

[bickster]

32 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I guess the question we should discuss is if there is any evidence an ID card is more easily forged / less secure than a passport. 

That really isn't the question, the question should be, how were the previous requirements abused to require this change to be made?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[Straggler]

33 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I guess the question we should discuss is if there is any evidence an ID card is more easily forged / less secure than a passport. 

We don’t allow people to travel to Australia on an ID card, you need a passport (and a pre-approved visa). I think that is the common policy for many nations. 

I haven’t looked at any data but presumably there is some sort of justification for that stance?

I think you are being too kind to this government.  Evidence based policymaking is not a thing for these guys.  I did find their justification, but it is a little thin on reasoning.

Govt Propaganda

Quote

From today (Friday 1 October 2021), most EU, EEA and Swiss citizens will need a valid passport to enter the UK as the government stops accepting national identity (ID) cards as a travel document.

These ID cards are some of the most abused documents seen by Border Force officers and, last year, almost half of all false documents detected at the border were EU, EEA or Swiss ID cards.

They can be easily abused by people attempting to come into the country illegally and by stopping accepting these forms of ID, the government can prevent organised criminal gangs and illegal migrants using them to enter the UK unlawfully.

It is really easy to pick holes in this statement, it is so lacking in detail that it doesn't really present an argument to do anything.  Almost half of false documentation being presented is ID's sounds like a problem with a solution.  We are clearly catching them at the border and able to identify the fakes. It's really hard to tell with no sense of the scale.  Did we have 4 of 10 total last year using false ID's or 400,000 of a million?  How many fakes do we think were good enough to make it through, how many illegal immigrants were found in the country to have used high quality fake ID's to get through a border check? Presenting fake ID isn't really a problem if it is being identified, a better number to understand is how many actually get through.

 

[HanoiVillan]

It also doesn't help particularly unless you know the proportion of documents presented that are ID cards vs the proportion presented that are passports.

EDIT: Sorry I realise that's the point you were making with the 4 out of 10 or 400,00 out of a million line, my bad.

Edited October 3, 2021 by HanoiVillan

[OutByEaster?]

I guess it would also be helpful to know the make up of the other 60% of false documents detected on entry into the country - are those all passports? What other documents are used and found to be false?

 

 

[StanBalaban]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Shall we hop on the Eurostar and go to London for the weekend darling?

Oh bollocks

A client of mine voted for Brexit, despite no longer living in the UK, because she used to go Interrailing around Europe and missed the days where she could collect entry stamps for different countries.

That was her sole reason. 

[LondonLax]

57 minutes ago, Straggler said:

I think you are being too kind to this government.  Evidence based policymaking is not a thing for these guys.  I did find their justification, but it is a little thin on reasoning.

Govt Propaganda

It is really easy to pick holes in this statement, it is so lacking in detail that it doesn't really present an argument to do anything.  Almost half of false documentation being presented is ID's sounds like a problem with a solution.  We are clearly catching them at the border and able to identify the fakes. It's really hard to tell with no sense of the scale.  Did we have 4 of 10 total last year using false ID's or 400,000 of a million?  How many fakes do we think were good enough to make it through, how many illegal immigrants were found in the country to have used high quality fake ID's to get through a border check? Presenting fake ID isn't really a problem if it is being identified, a better number to understand is how many actually get through.

 

Of course how would anyone be sure that you are catching 100% of the fakes? If people get in on fake ID cards they are not going to be recorded in the stats yet the indication there is that the ID cards are much more open to abuse than a passport is.

Are there many other countries outside the EU that accept an ID card in leu of an actual passport?

[LondonLax]

32 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I guess it would also be helpful to know the make up of the other 60% of false documents detected on entry into the country - are those all passports? What other documents are used and found to be false?

 

 

It would probably be more interesting to know the proportion of fakes vs real for each type of ID. 

The overwhelming majority of people at the U.K. border would present a passport, yet apparently almost half of those caught with false documents are using an ID card when they are caught (obviously we can’t also record how many are successful in getting through on fake documents, useful though that may be ).

That sounds like ID cards are over represented in the problem.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by LondonLax

[Straggler]

7 hours ago, LondonLax said:

It would probably be more interesting to know the proportion of fakes vs real for each type of ID. 

The overwhelming majority of people at the U.K. border would present a passport, yet apparently almost half of those caught with false documents are using an ID card when they are caught (obviously we can’t also record how many are successful in getting through on fake documents, useful though that may be ).

That sounds like ID cards are over represented in the problem.

 

No you can't record how many people get through on fake ID, but you can make an educated guess at it.  Same with the estimates on the value of any criminal industry, it's not like we have a tax return from drug dealers, but the police are able to extrapolate from the people they catch and the amount of drugs consumed etc what the size of the problem is.  It will be the same with fake ID's.  They will have a rough idea of how many illegal immigrants there are in the country, they will catch a decent number of them and recover whatever documents they used where possible.  Some will straight up admit how they got in once caught.  You take all that intelligence, apply the percentages to your best estimate of the number people here illegally and hey presto you have a working number.  It won't be 100% accurate, but it's the only sensible way of applying limited resources to a problem.  You have to have the best idea you can of the scale of the issue.

That you took the govt statement and said that ID cards are much more open to abuse that passports is not factual.  The evidence given by the govt is that ID's make up less than half of the false documents used at the border.  They say that ID's are more open to abuse, but do not provide any evidence to back that up.  What if the other >50% of fake documentation were passports?

7 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Of course how would anyone be sure that you are catching 100% of the fakes? If people get in on fake ID cards they are not going to be recorded in the stats yet the indication there is that the ID cards are much more open to abuse than a passport is.

Are there many other countries outside the EU that accept an ID card in leu of an actual passport?

Also you may want to re-read my post.  I don't claim we are catching 100% of fake ID's, just that we are clearly catching some.  Just a sentence later I wrote:

7 hours ago, LondonLax said:

How many fakes do we think were good enough to make it through, how many illegal immigrants were found in the country to have used high quality fake ID's to get through a border check?

 

[LondonLax]

5 minutes ago, Straggler said:

.

That you took the govt statement and said that ID cards are much more open to abuse that passports is not factual.  The evidence given by the govt is that ID's make up less than half of the false documents used at the border.  They say that ID's are more open to abuse, but do not provide any evidence to back that up.  What if the other >50% of fake documentation were passports?

 

 

If the other >50% of face documentation were passports it would still indicate that ID cards are orders of magnitude less secure than passports. Simply because arrivals from around the world are far more likely to be travelling on a passport than an EU ID card.

For example, to illustrate with a simplified set of data, imagine 100 people arrive and 10 are caught using fake documentation. Now if we say 90 of them use a passport and 6 of those are caught with a fake passport while 10 use an ID card and 4 of those are caught with a fake ID card.

You could look at that example and say that more people were caught with a fake passport so passports are the bigger problem, or you could say that 4 in 10 ID cards were fake and only 6 in 90 passports were fake so it’s actually ID cards that are the bigger issue.

 

 

 

[Xann]

A clearish example of how much extra we're paying for the Brexit treachery.

Before Brexit.

Same vendor after Brexit.

You see the extra line on the second bill?

You know how much food, fuel and goods come from abroad? That's in addition to the Tory hikes in your paypacket.

The majority of us UK residents are paying extra, so the wealthy parasites that conduct business in tax havens don't have to.

 

Is it sinking in yet?

[LondonLax]

5 hours ago, Xann said:

A clearish example of how much extra we're paying for the Brexit treachery.

Before Brexit.

Same vendor after Brexit.

You see the extra line on the second bill?

You know how much food, fuel and goods come from abroad? That's in addition to the Tory hikes in your paypacket.

The majority of us UK residents are paying extra, so the wealthy parasites that conduct business in tax havens don't have to.

 

Is it sinking in yet?

I’m not a business account so you are going to have to spell this out for me, but people payed VAT before Brexit, it just happened at a different point in the transaction didn’t it?

[Xann]

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

I’m not a business account so you are going to have to spell this out for me, but people payed VAT before Brexit, it just happened at a different point in the transaction didn’t it?

That line is the import tax. Calling it VAT was the vendor's workaround.

It was really chaotic for the first few weeks. Lots of places decided not to bother selling here anymore

It's still fairly random. One parcel arrived with 'Tax Paid' scribbled on it, others with proper invoice paperwork, like buying from Japan.

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, Xann said:

That line is the import tax. Calling it VAT was the vendor's workaround.

It was really chaotic for the first few weeks. Lots of places decided not to bother selling here anymore

It's still fairly random. One parcel arrived with 'Tax Paid' scribbled on it, others with proper invoice paperwork, like buying from Japan.

No that is what the EU requires, that the VAT be collected at the point it leaves the EU rather than at the final point of sale.