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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy
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I've had a letter from the Out campaign, where some bloke claimed he was going to tweet every day from March to the referendum a reason to leave. Even if you felt that the EU was the personification of Lucifer crossed with Hitler, there aren't enough reasons to tweet one a day without repeating yourself, of that I'm absolutely convinced.

I've also had a Leave and a Stay leaflet, the latter of which was hidden in a Dominos flyer. I'm not sure if that was aimed to influence my opinion, and if it was which way it would work...

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33 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Also might have helped to have put both arguments side by side to let people weigh them up simultaneously ?

That would be like the BBC, though, And the Tories (inners and outers) don't like the BBC. They like Murdoch and other money barons. Murdoch and other money Barons don't generally do unbiased both sides information providing. So you can stick your helpfulness and fairness and other such pinko ideas where the sun don't shine (Scotland, I imagine)! 

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What I will never understand is why the left (to which I tend to lean) in general are so anti-Brexit? 

How uncontrolled immigration is the friend of the proles is beyond me; watering down the wages of the lowest paid. And Labour wonder why they were deserted in the last election leaving us with these neo-liberal psychopaths.

Labour's meme seems to be about foreign workers coming here and doing the jobs that the 'indigenous' don't want to do. Wrong, they're doing the work for a fee that people here won't do because it makes no discernible difference to their lives. All ambition has been sucked from these people. Meanwhile some Eastern Europeans come over and get five times what they can back home and load themselves up with tax credits/child support and sleep four to a room. A few years later go home and buy a house outright. No wonder they're motivated! (Ironically the same happened in the 80s with 'Harder working' British workers going over to Germany to take 'lazy German' jobs - Auf Wiedersehen Pet)

At least with Cameron you can understand that his paymasters want the cheap labour on tap, but the labour party? They still don't get it.

The free movement of labour was never meant to bring 'their' living standards up. but to bring yours down. Thanks Globalisation, thanks NWO and get a grip Labour!!!

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44 minutes ago, Mantis said:

The government is entitled to take a position but it's disgraceful that public funds are being used for this.

The real waste is the money wasted on holding a referendum at all.

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4 minutes ago, limpid said:

The real waste is the money wasted on holding a referendum at all.

Nah, it was clear in polling results for years before it was finally granted that the majority of people wanted a referendum on EU membership. 

I can't be arsed with the required googling at the moment but suspect it has been so since Blair/Brown wriggled out of their manifesto commitment to have one over the EU Constitution (renamed as the Lisbon Treaty).

I fully understand why the pro EU camp never wanted it (they might lose) but to deny a democratic vote on the issue to the majority isn't really on.

If we can have a referendum on something as pathetic as AV then a vote on something people actually care about is justified and important. 

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9 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I've already ranted about this upthread, but I believe referenda should ONLY be held on 'pathetic' issues. 

But it is trivia, Mike. As Frankie Boyle said, we're having a referendum to decide the next leader of the tory party.

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52 minutes ago, Shaw_nuff said:

What I will never understand is why the left (to which I tend to lean) in general are so anti-Brexit? 

How uncontrolled immigration is the friend of the proles is beyond me; watering down the wages of the lowest paid. And Labour wonder why they were deserted in the last election leaving us with these neo-liberal psychopaths....

You're right I think. I suspect the general answer is that the EU tends to be viewed as protecting us against the vileness of unconstrained free market types like the tories and big business. It's been good for employment rights, the environment, peace, science, opportunity for easy travel and so on. It's massively flawed, but viewed as better than the alternative, I think.

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1 minute ago, blandy said:

But it is trivia, Mike. As Frankie Boyle said, we're having a referendum to decide the next leader of the tory party.

No, no, no, you are wrong.

It's hardly trivia to be able to produce goods we can sell to europe that no longer have to meet european standards. Once we are out we will be able to make stuff to whatever standard we like and sell it to them.

Also, once we are out we will be allowed to sell stuff all over the world, which at the moment would be illegal.

Once out we will be able to stop all those indians, south africans, americans, pakistani's, kiwis and australians from coming over here. They'll have to go and live with the tens of thousands of Brits in France, Spain and Cyprus.

Once out of europe we can stop taking in all these refugees. In Wales alone we've already taken in up to 11 families. Enough is enough.

Once out, we can spend money on our borders and our police and customs, which I guess at the moment we can't be allowed to.

Hardly trivia.

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31 minutes ago, blandy said:

You're right I think. I suspect the general answer is that the EU tends to be viewed as protecting us against the vileness of unconstrained free market types like the tories and big business. It's been good for employment rights, the environment, peace, science, opportunity for easy travel and so on. It's massively flawed, but viewed as better than the alternative, I think.

Only the polar opposite is true. Mario Draghi is ECB president for God's sake. That should be enough to sound the alarm bells that the neo Libs have taken over the European asylum.

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1 hour ago, limpid said:

The real waste is the money wasted on holding a referendum at all.

Couldn't disagree more. This is something the majority of the public have wanted and it's about time the issue was put to bed.

48 minutes ago, blandy said:

But it is trivia, Mike. As Frankie Boyle said, we're having a referendum to decide the next leader of the tory party.

Except we're not. It isn't as clear cut as the media are making out.

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13 minutes ago, Shaw_nuff said:

Only the polar opposite is true. Mario Draghi is ECB president for God's sake. That should be enough to sound the alarm bells that the neo Libs have taken over the European asylum.

No no no! The EU protects the little guy, does not encourage oligopolies through massive regulation buttressed by armies of lobbyists from big business, does not install Goldman Sachs graduates as replacements for democratically elected leaders, does not represent the interests of big capital, respects democratic referenda and is the bringer of peace and goodwill to all men.

Whats more if you don't agree you're probably a white supremacist who'd vote Trump given the chance.*

*other equally puerile caricatures of the leave campaign are available in this thread.

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53 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Couldn't disagree more. This is something the majority of the public have wanted and it's about time the issue was put to bed.

The majority of the public is more interested in which one is which from Ant and Dec.

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1 hour ago, Awol said:

No no no! The EU protects the little guy, does not encourage oligopolies through massive regulation buttressed by armies of lobbyists from big business, does not install Goldman Sachs graduates as replacements for democratically elected leaders, does not represent the interests of big capital, respects democratic referenda and is the bringer of peace and goodwill to all men.

Whats more if you don't agree you're probably a white supremacist who'd vote Trump given the chance.*

*other equally puerile caricatures of the leave campaign are available in this thread.

Rest assured that the protection of the little guy will be enhanced by the tory party should we vote leave. They will put an end to looking after your chums in the city and they will stop money buying influence.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mantis said:

You could say the same about elections but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

There is no point in this referendum when even people who've studied it don't really understand the implications of the decision. If experts don't know then what wisdom comes from letting people vote the way their newspaper tells them to?

It's a popularity contest and almost 50% of the few that vote will be annoyed about the result.

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42 minutes ago, limpid said:

There is no point in this referendum when even people who've studied it don't really understand the implications of the decision. If experts don't know then what wisdom comes from letting people vote the way their newspaper tells them to?

It's a popularity contest and almost 50% of the few that vote will be annoyed about the result.

Might as well not have elections at all with that logic.

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