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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy
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1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

As for the anti english bit, it might just be a poorly worded question, hopefully it was and not deliberate, because I’m not sure what you might have seen in 10 years of my posts that could cause you to phrase a question like that. 

I’m sorry if It came across that way, i wasn’t suggesting you were an anti-English person, apologies! I was just picking up on the comments I’ve seen about how the non-England countries of the UK are often treated poorly by the politicians in Westminster (I agree too). I was wondering if you had the opinion that remaining out of the EU might lead to a break up of the UK which may benefit Wales. 

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7 minutes ago, Genie said:

I’m sorry if It came across that way, i wasn’t suggesting you were an anti-English person, apologies! I was just picking up on the comments I’ve seen about how the non-England countries of the UK are often treated poorly by the politicians in Westminster (I agree too). I was wondering if you had the opinion that remaining out of the EU might lead to a break up of the UK which may benefit Wales. 

I think it very much suits the SNP that Scotland is pro Europe and they can say the bloc vote in England took them out. It’s strong strand of the Scots Indy argument when only dealt with on an emotional level. I think it would then suit the Welsh Indy movement if Scotland did leave. But there are way too many variables on that road to try to form a strategy out of it that had a predictable end point.

But yes, I think overall staying out of the EU, and it not looking like an obviously good economically and politically gainful thing, and it not being by common consent of all four nations, is probably a good long term thing for the various YES campaigns.

But it wouldn’t hole the YES campaign under the waterline if the UK asked to be allowed back in. That could be framed as a chaotic and expensive muddle in Westminsterland.

 

  

 

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1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I think overall staying out of the EU, and it not looking like an obviously good economically and politically gainful thing, and it not being by common consent of all four nations, is probably a good long term thing for the various YES campaigns.

Trouble is Wales voted leave, too. So how would that play out? Would the Wales Indie people say we voted out, but now we're being dragged back in against our will?

There's clearly an element of Indie campaigning that (as you say with Scotland) uses stuff opportunistically, rather than based around deep seated vision - in other words Independence trumps any other arguments - you'd get "what's the point of leaving the UK only to shack up with Brussels telling us what to do instead" arguments one way and "we can leave the UK and instead join the EU and be part of the continental non-Tory type of modern democracy - basically whatever suited at the time.

I mean personally good luck to Wales, Scotland etc and the people there need to have their own decisions, but part of me says I like them being in the UK, if for no other reasons than I'm not nationalistic and I think the whole is greater than the sum of its parts (as was also the case with the EU).

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3 minutes ago, blandy said:

Trouble is Wales voted leave, too. So how would that play out? Would the Wales Indie people say we voted out, but now we're being dragged back in against our will?

There's clearly an element of Indie campaigning that (as you say with Scotland) uses stuff opportunistically, rather than based around deep seated vision - in other words Independence trumps any other arguments - you'd get "what's the point of leaving the UK only to shack up with Brussels telling us what to do instead" arguments one way and "we can leave the UK and instead join the EU and be part of the continental non-Tory type of modern democracy - basically whatever suited at the time.

I mean personally good luck to Wales, Scotland etc and the people there need to have their own decisions, but part of me says I like them being in the UK, if for no other reasons than I'm not nationalistic and I think the whole is greater than the sum of its parts (as was also the case with the EU).

I think my sentence before the one you quoted maybe covered the question you’re asking.

It’s very early days for the Welsh YES campaign and they’re still having quite a few teething troubles. With Scotland ‘in’, England makes up roughly 84% of the UK by population and representation. With Scotland ‘out’, that makes England 92% of the UK. That’s some rough maths, but Wales would have to decide at that point if it’s happy to bob along as a glorified county, or whether it has the balls to aspire to more.

EU membership as an issue, is lower down the agenda for the Welsh campaign. We must be a minimum of two election cycles from a referendum so it won’t be the chaotic issue it is today, we’ll know more about how it panned out. Though there are definitely voices such as Gwlad that would argue for an Indy Wales, outside the EU and pursuing the type of independence that the tories promised Britain.  

To drag it back on topic. I think it’s far too early to know if overall leaving was a good thing or a bad thing. We’re judging a cake that is still cooking.

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2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

To drag it back on topic. I think it’s far too early to know if overall leaving was a good thing or a bad thing. We’re judging a cake that is still cooking.

I disagree. I lost rights which I'm unlikely to ever get back. It's already a bad thing.

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58 minutes ago, limpid said:

I disagree. I lost rights which I'm unlikely to ever get back. It's already a bad thing.

You could well be right, probably are right, certainly as a snap shot of right now. There’s a lot more easily identifiable as negative than positive. But its been such a short and unusual timespan. 

A different government and a few more years for all sides to stop hurting and start co-operating and who knows what we will and won’t be able to have. Who’s to say that in 10 or 20 years we couldn’t have the good stuff back, plus a better understanding of our place in the world.

I’m not a fan of where we are at, so like it or not I’ve got to put my best spin on it and move forward. The alternative is to feel sorry for myself and dwell on it.

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1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

But given the ingredients of the cake were dog shit and Nigel Farage's toe-nail clippings, it probably doesn't need much of a taste-test before we realise that it's probably not going to win Bake-Off.

When life gives you lemons, show it the dirty sponge finger and keep on keepin’ on.

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1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Who’s to say that in 10 or 20 years we couldn’t have the good stuff back, plus a better understanding of our place in the world.

Quote

1972 prediction of the collapse of society is on track to happen by 2040: Economic growth will halt in decade, food will become scarce and human population will decline, KPMG study finds

MIT used a world simulation model to learn how our world would fare from 1972 to 2060

The model looked at a number of factors such as population, industrial output and persistent pollution, and found a societal collapse could happen by 2040

The research was criticized at the time, but an accounting firm analysis took another look at MIT's data and found their stark prediction was correct 

The recent work shows our business-as-usual mentality will spark a decline of economic growth within the next decade, but a total collapse by 2040

Heil and elsewhere.

Meanwhile our government's policies revolve around stuffing the nation's cash into their chums' pockets.

Edited by Xann
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6 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

 

It’s all project reality. 

Higher taxes and higher inflation, all entirely predictable and predicted.

Shits gonna hit the fan next month when furlough ends. 

Edited by Genie
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1 hour ago, Mark Albrighton said:

 

There is definitely something fishy about the Brexit agreement our lord and saviour Boris parachuted himself into to rescue. 

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2 hours ago, Genie said:

It’s all project reality. 

Higher taxes and higher inflation, all entirely predictable and predicted.

Shits gonna hit the fan next month when furlough ends. 

Yes, and even bigger is the ending of the universal credit uplift. Hard times incoming.

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2 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

 

She was right when she sarcastically said it's nothing to do with Brexit, unless the suggestion is that Brexit is such a disaster that it's raised shipping costs globally.

I'm sure there's a bit of added cost from increased paperwork and checks due to Brexit, but the prices have risen astronomically for shipping to any country in the world, I was reading about the containers costing 5 times as much from China to the US as well.

Just because someone works in an industry and sees an effect doesn't mean they have any idea what the cause is, even if they're willing to make an arse of themselves on national TV.

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6 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Not to mention expected record increases in energy prices due to the lifting of the cap.  Yay!

Wholesale power prices have go crazy these last 8 months, not sure if really brexit related, but the energy companies will be passing on those increases soon enough. Deffo hard times ahoy.

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3 minutes ago, stuart_75 said:

Wholesale power prices have go crazy these last 8 months, not sure if really brexit related, but the energy companies will be passing on those increases soon enough. Deffo hard times ahoy.

Oh yeah, forgot I was in the Brexit thread but just to add to the doom and extra pinch for households across the country.

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42 minutes ago, stuart_75 said:

Wholesale power prices have go crazy these last 8 months, not sure if really brexit related, but the energy companies will be passing on those increases soon enough. Deffo hard times ahoy.

As I understand it, we've not really brexit related either. Our nuclear plants has been having planned (and some unplanned) maintenance, and renewables haven't been filling the gap. We've not been able to make up the shortfall with cheap energy from Europe because of how cold it was last winter, the stores are running empty, and some countries are blocking exports to put themselves first (Ireland did this a couple of days ago) - again, this is a global effect, somewhat compounded by some of our infrastructure challenges, but it's not a brexit symptom.

With us decommisioning nuclear far more quickly than we're adding to our capacity, expect household energy bills to stay high unless we have a very windy decade. 

Edited by Davkaus
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