chrisp65 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 20 minutes ago, Genie said: More project fear, it’ll never happen. Though it would be difficult to know with the post office. I had three identical parcels sent to me from the same person on the same day (Monday), posted late afternoon, 11 miles from where I live. One turned up 7:00am the next morning, the next arrived Friday afternoon. The last one arrived the next Monday, a whole 7 days after posting. Same parcel, same address sticker, same postage cost. They must literally have put the last one in storage somewhere and thought, meh, we’ll maybe deliver it towards the end of the week or next week maybe. First class, recorded delivery, 11 mile journey.... 7 days. If I’d walked there, picked it up and walked back home, I’d have shaved 6.5 days of that time. So yeah, I can see how getting something to Poland could be problematic for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 30, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) The other thing you are going to see is such and such only happened because it's a bad deal ignoring that no deal would have resulted in exactly the same or worse. In addition THEY TOLD US THE DEAL WOULD BE EASY. Theresa May was booted out because she couldn't negotiate a good enough deal so the big boys took over to go and sort the deal out. If the deal was easy as promised and we've had 2 administrations negotiate it WHY IS IT STILL A BAD DEAL? They were so much better than remain at the PR side. They won it on bullshit. Look at the slogans Remoaners Project Fear (project seer more like) No deal is better than a bad deal. Then why have you recommended a bad deal then Boris? Because you knew damn well no deal was simply no option for us because it would be economic suicide. Your snappy slogan was yet another lie. So we're left with all of the drawbacks and none of the benefits - not that there were any benefits to be had anyway. Edited December 30, 2020 by sidcow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXD Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 27 minutes ago, sidcow said: So we're left with all of the drawbacks and none of the benefits - not that there were any benefits to be had anyway. Didn’t you get £350m per week for the NHS once you left the EU? That has to come in handy in a time like this? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 30, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, AXD said: Didn’t you get £350m per week for the NHS once you left the EU? That has to come in handy in a time like this? Oh yes, I am looking forward to my personal physician next year. I am 100% sure I will see an enormous improvement in the NHS. life will never be the same again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted December 30, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 30, 2020 Worrying analysis by David Allen Green. Wonder what other little chestnuts this bill has hidden it it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 In a roundabout sort of way, Corbyn is to blame for a lot of where we are now. May is, too. And most of the Labour PLP, various remain commentators and the Labour membership. So I guess everyone then. May's deal was a lot better than Johnson's. Most people outside of the ERG would take your hand off for it now. But Corbyn whipped against it time after time because he saw it as a way to bring down the government and force a general election which he thought he had a chance of winning. But he was hugely encouraged to do that by all of the remainers who saw any kind of brexit as unacceptable and that their only chance was a 2nd referendum. Had Corbyn just backed the chequers deal, the last 3 years would have gone a lot more smoothly and we would have left on more favourable terms by now. But I don't think he would have been allowed to do anything but block anything to do with brexit. When all of leave went to the Tories, Labour could only try to keep as much of the remain vote as possible. The members were overwhelmingly remain and the Lib Dems were breathing down Labour's neck. It should have been so different but we've ended up at pretty much the worst place we could and I'm not sure how anything could have been done differently to avoid this outcome. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just a complete embarrassment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said: Worrying analysis by David Allen Green Very worrying and underlines the worries about the covid emergency legislation being practice for much wider stuff. 'Taking back control'. Starmer at al. nodding this through should also be concerning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 28 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Just a complete embarrassment. Bill Cash is a right word removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 I haven’t understood Labour policy or tactics on this from start to finish. Let the tory bastards 100% own their own shitty bed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted December 30, 2020 Author Moderator Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, darrenm said: In a roundabout sort of way, Corbyn is to blame for a lot of where we are now. May is, too. And most of the Labour PLP, various remain commentators and the Labour membership. So I guess everyone then. May's deal was a lot better than Johnson's. Most people outside of the ERG would take your hand off for it now. But Corbyn whipped against it time after time because he saw it as a way to bring down the government and force a general election which he thought he had a chance of winning. But he was hugely encouraged to do that by all of the remainers who saw any kind of brexit as unacceptable and that their only chance was a 2nd referendum. Had Corbyn just backed the chequers deal, the last 3 years would have gone a lot more smoothly and we would have left on more favourable terms by now. But I don't think he would have been allowed to do anything but block anything to do with brexit. When all of leave went to the Tories, Labour could only try to keep as much of the remain vote as possible. The members were overwhelmingly remain and the Lib Dems were breathing down Labour's neck. It should have been so different but we've ended up at pretty much the worst place we could and I'm not sure how anything could have been done differently to avoid this outcome. I agree with a lot of that. Some differences, too. Personally speaking, I think May's "deal" was a bit better than Johnson's, but that the red lines she laid down were inevitably leading to a poor deal. The oppositions job is to oppose. the SNP, Lib Dems and so on had it easy, because they were pro Europe, so could lay out a clear position. Labour was a fustercluck - they couldn't ever work out what their own position was, so couldn't coherently argue one way or the other. They needed to pick a horse, and they didn't. The could have picked "soft leave" and argued for that, with the aim of forcing the government to steer in that direction. They could have picked a clear remain position. They ended up with remainers thinking they were pro leave, and leavers thinking they were pro remain, so lost both sets. At least picking one or the other would have lost only one set, but picked up deserters from other parties to counter that. Realistically, with the Tories turning into UKIP they could have shifted to either soft leave or clear remain and occupied the sane ground. But that's just my view, most will disgree. One thing that absolutely could have been done differently to avoid this outcome is really straightforward - the vote to trigger Article 50 and start the clock before we knew what we wanted. It's not hindsight, either. May and Corbyn are massively at fault here. Both parties whipped to support that vote. They should have been working out "what do we want from leaving the EU?" set out what the aims were and then obviously the tories as Gov't could have got on with then getting what the nation wanted. Labour could have either chosen to support "parliaments agreed aims" in the name of democracy, or to oppose completely on the basis that the now identified aims were (if they would have been) completely different from what was said in the referendum campaign. The only card the UK had was the A50 trigger. As soon as we pulled it we were at the mercy of the EU, because of the clock. We had to know what we wanted before we pulled that trigger. That we didn't led us to where we are. And because we didn't, the pull of the ERG throbbers got harder and harder as the tory leader needed their votes. I mean if you look at what the various tories said post referendum and then more recently - many things they were absolutely against 4 years ago, they are now enthusiastically commending now. They've been carried by the stream and by putting careers before integrity. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 The EU officially signed the trade deal this morning, then it was flown from Brussels to London by the RAF to be signed by “us” this afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Genie said: The EU officially signed the trade deal this morning, then it was flown from Brussels to London by the RAF to be signed by “us” this afternoon. Seems like we could have saved tens of thousands of pounds using esignatures. Sorry, this agreement talks about Netscape...fax machines? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, Davkaus said: Seems like we could have saved tens of thousands of pounds using esignatures. Sorry, this agreement talks about Netscape...fax machines? That was my though, how much would it cost to setup that flight? They could have just signed, scanned and emailed it over you’d have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 If it was an in person agreement, I can understand the pomp and ceremony for a photo op, I'm a bit surprised they need to fly over a physical document though. It's completely insignificant on a national budget, I'm just genuinely quite surprised they need something to be physically signed for an agreement between nation states these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: The could have picked "soft leave" and argued for that, with the aim of forcing the government to steer in that direction. This would have been the least worst option, but remainers spent a lot of time counter-productively deriding this as 'unicorns' and 'fantasy'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 20 minutes ago, Genie said: The EU officially signed the trade deal this morning, then it was flown from Brussels to London by the RAF to be signed by “us” this afternoon. Spitfire, no doubt. With all the tories on the white cliffs doing their best Benny Hill salutes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 30, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted December 30, 2020 31 minutes ago, Genie said: The EU officially signed the trade deal this morning, then it was flown from Brussels to London by the RAF to be signed by “us” this afternoon. Keep those RAF Jets warmed up in case there is anything we don't like in it. They can be over Berlin in 20 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 I'm ashamed to say I got so fed up with the whole thing that I've still not bothered looking up what the deal involves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 40 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Spitfire, no doubt. With all the tories on the white cliffs doing their best Benny Hill salutes. I think there is an element of truth in your humour. I’m sure it could have been signed a different, more efficient way. But it was a show of strength for those that like that sort of thing. Very Putin-esque. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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