The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[mjmooney]

4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t agree.   Also why do you say voting based just in a manifesto is voting blind? It’s more important than voting simply on whether you like the leader of the party or not surely?

That's exactly what he's saying. It's you that's (apparently) voting based on the leader. 

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t agree.   Also why do you say voting based just in a manifesto is voting blind? It’s more important than voting simply on whether you like the leader of the party or not surely?

As Chindie has said above, what I meant was, if people are given manifesto’s not knowing which party they are, they tend to prefer the Labour one. There have been numerous polls that reflect that.

But it’s not easy to drill down to the truth. YouGov did a poll before the 2017 election where they claimed the Tory promise of £8Bn in to the NHS was the most popular policy on offer. Interestingly, they hadn’t put the equivalent Labour policy in the same poll. Labour’s policy was also £8bn in to the NHS plus an explanation of how they were going to fund it, higher tax on private health care, private health company profits and higher tax on the top 5% of earners.

Clearly that wasn’t going to give YouGov the result they were looking for.

Voting based on manifesto is your best chance of voting for the correct party. Obviously I’d exempt the LibDems here.

[Dodgyknees]

12 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Theres been studies where the parties manifestos are rated in 'blind' tests (i.e. they were stripped of the party identification and boiled down to the basic policies) and generally, Labour comes out on top in them.

But when it comes to the polling station, the country (/England) tends to swerve right.

The Labour manifesto is exactly what I want for this country. Corbyn is far from faultless, but what the country needs comes first. Also a lot of his "faults" have been managed into people's thoughts by the media. 

Labour get my vote based on what th country needs. 

I'm working with two ex BBC journalists right now, and I've heard some very very interesting stories. I've also got some stories about my time in news, but the issue is, I'll never work again if I start talking about things I've heard. My current role means I need a good relationship with journalists, including the BBC. Paying rent comes first for me, same for the.ex BBC journalists I'm working with, otherwise I'd love to write about what I've seen in local media, and for them, things at the BBC.

Edited October 20, 2019 by avfcDJ

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

The Labour manifesto is exactly what I want for this country. Corbyn is far from faultless, but what the country needs comes first. Also a lot of his "faults" have been managed into people's thoughts by the media. 

Labour get my vote based on what th country needs. 

Baring a miracle nobody will get my vote at the next election, but I'd probably find myself most drawn to Labours. It doesn't matter as my seat has been Labour for 99% of it's existence anyway, and more importantly tonnes of the country will fall nicely in line with the Tories.

And then the damage of Brexit will be drip fed into the country (unless the ERG bait plan to backdoor no deal next year happens) and the Tories will be rewarded for being Tories and nobody will notice that, hey, that Tory in fight that started pointlessly years ago has actually buggered us all but it happened so slowly that nobody noticed until a big blue cock was touching the nations' collective prostate.

And some joy will be had.

[Vive_La_Villa]

21 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

That's exactly what he's saying. It's you that's (apparently) voting based on the leader. 

Yep I misunderstood as usual. Learn a lot from this thread, thanks guys

FWIW I voted Tory in 2015 based on policies. The fact Cameron would be Prime minister instead of Miliband was just a bonus. 

[chrisp65]

Yeah, second level voting - tactics.

Mine is a Tory seat with a fairly narrow majority over Labour. Narrow as in it’s 2,000 votes and at the last election which Labour basically threw for some reason. A candidate that nobody knew, that wasn’t seen around and didn’t even leaflet people’s houses. Literally the only party not to bother canvassing terraced houses in town. The Pirate party leafletted ffs.

So my choice here, is a vote for Labour could get the Tory out, a vote based on principle would effectively be wasted in the grand scheme of things and keep the Tory in. So for me at the next election, based on the mood music, I could vote for any old Labour donkey. Potentially.

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Yep I misunderstood as usual. Learn a lot from this thread, thanks guys

FWIW I voted Tory in 2015 based on policies. The fact Cameron would be Prime minister instead of Miliband was just a bonus. 

A good choice, can you imagine the chaos of a Milliband premiership.

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

The fact Cameron would be Prime minister instead of Miliband was just a bonus. 

Obligatory posting required:

[chrisp65]

It’ll never get old!

God bless the old pig ****.

 

[StefanAVFC]

Makes me laugh how people call a 2nd ref the biggest disgrace to democracy or whatever other tripe, but say nothing about FPTP every election cycle.

Ho hum.

[brommy]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Makes me laugh how people call a 2nd ref the biggest disgrace to democracy or whatever other tripe, but say nothing about FPTP every election cycle.

Ho hum.

I’d like a referendum counting first, second and third choice between remain, leave with the government/EU deal and leave with no deal.

[tonyh29]

45 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

I'm working with two ex BBC journalists right now, and I've heard some very very interesting stories. I've also got some stories about my time in news, but the issue is, I'll never work again if I start talking about things I've heard. My current role means I need a good relationship with journalists, including the BBC. Paying rent comes first for me, same for the.ex BBC journalists I'm working with, otherwise I'd love to write about what I've seen in local media, and for them, things at the BBC.

As ITK goes , that’s up there with anything in the transfer speculation thread

 

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, brommy said:

I’d like a referendum counting first, second and third choice between remain, leave with the government/EU deal and leave with no deal.

Immediately splits the Leave vote so would be considered illegitimate by any Leave voter.

It has to be a binary choice, as reflected by the original question. Given Parliament has basically stipulated that No Deal isn't permissable, you'd have to put a second referendum up as Remain v Government deal. And you'd still be in the same position we were the first time, where you need to explain to a voting public who doesn't want nor need to know about **** tedious stuff like trading regulations and international political wrangling what those options actually mean. Whilst interested parties on both sides simplify and obfusticate the positions to the point of misleading (or straight up lying) to sway a bored and unengaged public to side with them.

Theres no easy way out of this. The Tory party opened Pandora's box and it's never, ever getting shut again.

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

Theres been studies where the parties manifestos are rated in 'blind' tests (i.e. they were stripped of the party identification and boiled down to the basic policies) and generally, Labour comes out on top in them.

But when it comes to the polling station, the country (/England) tends to swerve right.

 i guess it shows the problem parties have in general  of getting the message through 

you gov surveys after the 2017 election showed the top 3 reasons for voting Tory were Brexit , Anti Corbyn then Anti Labour .. polices only accounted for 10% of the reason 

28% of voters who voted labour had  their reason For doing so  as  “policy / manifesto”  ... followed by Anti Tory  in second

its like policy doesn’t matter ( perhaps Brexit is policy though ? )

 

Next election , other than Brexit , could simply come down to who do people hate less Johnson or Corbyn 

Edited October 20, 2019 by tonyh29

[Seat68]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

The fact Cameron would be Prime minister instead of Miliband was just a bonus. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Makes me laugh how people call a 2nd ref the biggest disgrace to democracy or whatever other tripe, but say nothing about FPTP every election cycle.

Ho hum.

Giving people another vote, yeah can totally see how that's a disgrace to democracy, makes sense.

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Next election , other than Brexit , could simply come down to who do people hate less Johnson or Corbyn 

Probably true. 

[bickster]

3 hours ago, peterms said:

That's useful to know.  I've passed your details to the Merseyside Corrections Committee.

They're all on too much of high after his "fanasic" performance at Central Hall yesterday, Central Hall, last time he filled St Georges Plateau

There is a shortage of Kleenex in the city now though

Even Chippy Tits appears to support him, which certainly wasn't the case before. This is likely down to union pressure and that one of the other factions on the council doesn't (Nick Small et al)

[peterms]

47 minutes ago, bickster said:

They're all on too much of high after his "fanasic" performance at Central Hall yesterday, Central Hall, last time he filled St Georges Plateau

There is a shortage of Kleenex in the city now though

Even Chippy Tits appears to support him, which certainly wasn't the case before. This is likely down to union pressure and that one of the other factions on the council doesn't (Nick Small et al)

Salma Yaqoob has been posting lots of twitter message of support for her bid to be mayor, from councillors and local activists.  Somehow "Chippy Tits supports Jez" doesn't have quite the same ring.  More like graffiti.

[brommy]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Immediately splits the Leave vote so would be considered illegitimate by any Leave voter.

It has to be a binary choice, as reflected by the original question. Given Parliament has basically stipulated that No Deal isn't permissable, you'd have to put a second referendum up as Remain v Government deal. And you'd still be in the same position we were the first time, where you need to explain to a voting public who doesn't want nor need to know about **** tedious stuff like trading regulations and international political wrangling what those options actually mean. Whilst interested parties on both sides simplify and obfusticate the positions to the point of misleading (or straight up lying) to sway a bored and unengaged public to side with them.

Theres no easy way out of this. The Tory party opened Pandora's box and it's never, ever getting shut again.

If the leave deal/no deal voters second choices were transferred to no deal/deal, it wouldn’t split the leave vote. When a >50% majority is reached on counting second preferences, the result stands.

At least the voters would know what the deal was they were voting on, unlike last time.

I’m not confident those remainers who think a second referendum will give them the result they prefer. The numbers who now think the deal is not for them could be exceeded by those remainers who think we should honour the original result.